6 ms·

HAES is not BS. Here's the deal. For lots and lots of people, being not fat is very very hard. So hard, that even though there is enormous social pressure that

by Afton 8y ago

HAES is not BS. Here's the deal. For lots and lots of people, being not fat is very very hard. So hard, that even though there is enormous social pressure that they've had basically from ~12 years old to however old they are, they still haven't managed to become non-fat for any significant length of time. HAES is a reaction that says "What if we accepted that some people are just going to be fat, and then tried to come up with ways of being as healthy as possible given the circumstances". You may not like the packaging that HAES comes wrapped up in, and the most vocal proponents of it are often the least interested in making it palatable to you. But it's not BS. Consider that there is essentially nothing that medical science has for people who are chronically fat except a gastric sleeve. Shit is hard, yo.

diminoten 8y ago
> being not fat is very very hard Irrelevant. It is not more healthy to be fat than it is to be not-fat because it's hard. Acceptance is not going to change a damn thing about the health risks inherent with being fat. You have all my sympathy. One of my closest friends is a very large guy, and I want him to be around when we get old, but the stats tell me that's less and less likely every year he stays obese. Me accepting him (and I do) won't keep him on this planet. :(
- soneca 8y ago
  Damage control might be a smart way to improve health.
  - diminoten 8y ago
    The data doesn't say it is. Sure you can improve on other axes, but weight is a leading indicator of mortality. I wish you were right, it'd be great to be able to be obese and healthy, but that just isn't how it is.
    - soneca 8y ago
      That's not what damage control is. I am not claiming that there is a way to be fat and absolutely healthy. I am saying that there are ways to be healthier while being fat. That is damage control, like the ones applied to drug addiction. And that is proved to be a good decision in some cases.
      - diminoten 8y ago
        > And that is proved to be a good decision in some cases. No it hasn't, because it doesn't exist as you describe. It exists as I've described. Everything you can do, while obese, you can also do while not-obese.
- Afton 8y ago
  Why do you think I'm fat? I'm not > Irrelevant. It is not more healthy to be fat than it is to be not-fat because it's hard. Acceptance is not going to change a damn thing about the health risks inherent with being fat. You are entirely missing the point. The issue is "given that I'm going to be fat, perhaps I should work with what I have, rather than beating myself up over the fact that I'm fat". Once you do that, you can start to look at what else you might change about your life that would improve your health.
  - diminoten 8y ago
    "You" here being a stand-in for anyone reading this who is fat. It's not really relevant if you're fat. And I'm not missing the point, you're making up some kind of generalization that doesn't A) fit the facts as we know them, and B) doesn't actually address the issue. You're saying, "What else can I do to be healthy?" but you can/should do those things as well as work on losing weight. Giving up on losing weight doesn't lower your risk at all. You can stop beating yourself up about being fat and keep trying to lose weight, as well. I think we can agree the moralizations aren't helping here, but you can't wish away the unhealthiness of obesity, like this stupid movement tries to do.
noja 8y ago
Sometimes I see comments like this and it's like someone is posting from another galaxy. I've literally never heard of a movement that says that can be healthy. How did that even happen? Edit: link for HAES https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_at_Every_Size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_at_Every_Size
- koboll 8y ago
  On the internet, there is a supportive community for every possible opinion humans can have.
NotAnEconomist 8y ago
So it's the same logic as, "Well, we should let them do heroin -- just try to make it as safe as possible"? Seems like a meme we should minimize the transmission of, to me. > Consider that there is essentially nothing that medical science has for people who are chronically fat except a gastric sleeve. It also yields ridiculous statements like this. Medical science has some very clear advice for fat people: eat less and exercise more. They're making an entire movement to justify why they're lazy and undisciplined.
- Afton 8y ago
  What do you think Safe Injection sites are, if not exactly that?
  - NotAnEconomist 8y ago
    Yes -- that's the logic I was referring to. However "safe injection sites" are anything but safe to the surrounding community, and may increase usage rates while only mildly decreasing fatality rates. By keeping the sickly ones around, we're actually making the whole herd less healthy -- particularly when we enable them spreading their illness. I think the medical professionals involved in "safe injection sites" should be seriously questioned about their medical ethics: they're failing to quarantine sick patients, and in treating them without that buffer, spreading the disease to the healthy population. It's quack "medicine", just like HAES/HAMS.
    - diminoten 8y ago
      Are you implying we kill/let die the "sickly"? Seems extreme...
      - minikites 8y ago
        It's the entire Republican plan for healthcare: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_big_idea/2011/09/let_him_die.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_big_idea... >Blitzer pressed the point. "But, Congressman, are you saying the society should just let him die?" At that point, the rabble erupted in cheers and whoops of "Yeah!"
brobdingnagians 8y ago
Most people in history were _not_ fat. It used to be _hard_ to be fat. Modern society and sedentary jobs make it harder to not be fat, so it takes discipline and hobbies like hiking and working out to actually get physical activity, and healthy diet is the key element. When everyone is eating processed food and doing very little during a typical day, it is hard to not be fat, but that doesn't mean we should accept that, we should push for a healthier society. There are things about lifespan, but also quality of life, ability to think, dealing with stress, _huge_ mental health effects, etc. Our entire society would improve if we decided to change things instead of giving up.
- minikites 8y ago
  How well is your strategy of "blaming individuals" working out? Should we blame them even harder to see if that works more often?
- Navarr 8y ago
  Obviously we should push for a healthier society, but that doesn't necessarily mean we should shame those who do not have a fit body size. Don't forget that in many circumstances cooking and hobbies like working out and hiking and such can be privileged. Someone working two jobs to get by probably doesn't have the funds for a gym membership or to go out hiking, and might not even have the mental energy to. And then cooking healthy food is surprisingly expensive and time consuming when compared to processed foods. So yes, absolutely, we should push for a healthier society, but at the same time we should accept that there are valid reasons someone might not be fit, and we shouldn't shame them for that. Instead, we should try to improve the situations that cause it as much as we can within our abilities.
  - brobdingnagians 8y ago
    Not shaming, but that is a false dichotomy. I don't want to go around condemning people; I just don't think telling them everything is okay and letting them die young is a good idea. There are many other options to take; better education on the topic, better culture around work, better pay, better childhood involvement in activity, less videogames, etc. It isn't just a poverty issue and it is getting worse in all levels of society.
Waterluvian 8y ago
It's complicated. On one hand you don't want to foster mental health issues by constantly reinforcing to people that their weight is wrong and bad. On the other hand, you probably don't want to excuse a physiologically unhealthy condition by calling it "healthy". I don't have an answer. I was fit until I hit university and now I'm struggling with my weight constantly. I'm committed to trying. Losing weight. Getting in a healthy habit. Relapsing. Dozens of times in a decade. But what I don't ever want to do is declare that I'm just healthy at any size and therefore throw in the towel. The grim reaper doesn't give a crap what I think healthy means.
- Afton 8y ago
  I think you are seeing what I'm trying to say. It's not like most fat people are not aware that they're fat, and not aware that that is a problem. They are just exhausted with trying to change it. Particularly for people who have "always" been fat. Consider that being fat might be better for you than alternating between eating disorders and being fat, which is the choice that a non-trivial number of fat people are faced with.
koboll 8y ago
>HAES is a reaction that says "What if we accepted that some people are just going to be fat, and then tried to come up with ways of being as healthy as possible given the circumstances". You may not like the packaging that HAES comes wrapped up in, and the most vocal proponents of it are often the least interested in making it palatable to you. But it's not BS. If that was all it was saying, I'd be onboard. But it also says things like "losing weight is literally impossible!", and "there is no evidence that obesity is unhealthy!" and then cherry-picks and misconstrues research so that it seems to give scientific backing to those conclusions, which are deeply harmful lies.
- Afton 8y ago
  No, people say these things. This is cherry-picking as well. Again, lots of fat-acceptance people aren't stupid, they have just decided to pick their battles.
towelr34dy 8y ago
Let's reconsider this position using some other example: Healthy on Heroin. HOH HOH is not BS. Here's the deal. For lots and lots of people, being not addicted to heroin is very very hard. So hard, that even though there is enormous social pressure that they've had basically from ~18 years old to however old they are, they still haven't managed to become clean for any significant length of time. HOH is a reaction that says "What if we accepted that some people are just going to be heroin addicts, and then tried to come up with ways of being as healthy as possible given the circumstances". You may not like the packaging that HOH comes wrapped up in, and the most vocal proponents of it are often the least interested in making it palatable to you. But it's not BS. Consider that there is essentially nothing that medical science has for people who are chronically addicted to heroin except a detox. Shit is hard, yo.
- QuotedForTruth 8y ago
  You chose a pretty poor example. Have you ever heard of methadone? Its literally accepting that someone will be addicted to opiates for a long time or life and then giving them a healthier alternative that doesnt try to change that. https://www.crchealth.com/addiction/heroin-addiction-treatment/heroin-detox/methadone_life/ https://www.crchealth.com/addiction/heroin-addiction-treatme...
  - towelr34dy 8y ago
    Yeah, see, no one is bothered by that because no one is saying: Be proud of your true heroin addicted self. Show it to the world. IF they don't accept your heroin addiction THEY ARE wrong. See. If any movement said that, I'd be against it. Because they are trying to remove stigma from something that SHOULD HAVE IT.
- bitcrusher 8y ago
  Let's reconsider this position using some other example: Such a shame that the "healthy at any genetic condition" BS is so popular these days. Literally killing people.
  - 8y ago
wvenable 8y ago
You can be fit and still be fat though. I've been working out with a personal trainer for a couple of years now and I'm significantly healthier and stronger than I was before I started but I haven't lost the gut (yet). If HAES is just an excuse to not try and be fit, it is going to kill people.
- Afton 8y ago
  Some people will use it for that. Others won't.
  - wvenable 8y ago
    I don't see what else the "movement" would be used for. If you are obese than you are unhealthy. It might be hard to be hard to maybe impossible to improve that but it doesn't suddenly become "healthy" because of that.
a11595 8y ago
Plenty. I'm very fit all my life, but as I have gotten older, metabolism slowed down, less time and energy, I am still exactly as fit as I was, and still eat w/o a diet, often before bed. What's changed: every morning I wear an ab belt while getting ready for work. With every greasy mean I pop an orlistat. I wear a couple of electrodes on my chest/back/arms under my shirt while at work, instead of a workout most days. 5'11, 170lb, 6% bodyfat, bench 300 20 times. This is 100% because of medical science, because I'm a lazy 40yo slob. Just a really fit one despite the daily cake and pizza before bed.
matchbok 8y ago
It's impossible to create matter out of nothing. Dieting works and will always work. Not saying it's easy, but waving off obesity as incurable is crazy.

by Afton 8y ago

diminoten 8y ago

> being not fat is very very hard Irrelevant. It is not more healthy to be fat than it is to be not-fat because it's hard. Acceptance is not going to change a damn thing about the health risks inherent with being fat. You have all my sympathy. One of my closest friends is a very large guy, and I want him to be around when we get old, but the stats tell me that's less and less likely every year he stays obese. Me accepting him (and I do) won't keep him on this planet. :(

soneca 8y ago
Damage control might be a smart way to improve health.
- diminoten 8y ago
  The data doesn't say it is. Sure you can improve on other axes, but weight is a leading indicator of mortality. I wish you were right, it'd be great to be able to be obese and healthy, but that just isn't how it is.
  - soneca 8y ago
    That's not what damage control is. I am not claiming that there is a way to be fat and absolutely healthy. I am saying that there are ways to be healthier while being fat. That is damage control, like the ones applied to drug addiction. And that is proved to be a good decision in some cases.
    - diminoten 8y ago
      > And that is proved to be a good decision in some cases. No it hasn't, because it doesn't exist as you describe. It exists as I've described. Everything you can do, while obese, you can also do while not-obese.
Afton 8y ago
Why do you think I'm fat? I'm not > Irrelevant. It is not more healthy to be fat than it is to be not-fat because it's hard. Acceptance is not going to change a damn thing about the health risks inherent with being fat. You are entirely missing the point. The issue is "given that I'm going to be fat, perhaps I should work with what I have, rather than beating myself up over the fact that I'm fat". Once you do that, you can start to look at what else you might change about your life that would improve your health.
- diminoten 8y ago
  "You" here being a stand-in for anyone reading this who is fat. It's not really relevant if you're fat. And I'm not missing the point, you're making up some kind of generalization that doesn't A) fit the facts as we know them, and B) doesn't actually address the issue. You're saying, "What else can I do to be healthy?" but you can/should do those things as well as work on losing weight. Giving up on losing weight doesn't lower your risk at all. You can stop beating yourself up about being fat and keep trying to lose weight, as well. I think we can agree the moralizations aren't helping here, but you can't wish away the unhealthiness of obesity, like this stupid movement tries to do.

noja 8y ago

Sometimes I see comments like this and it's like someone is posting from another galaxy. I've literally never heard of a movement that says that can be healthy. How did that even happen? Edit: link for HAES https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_at_Every_Size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_at_Every_Size

koboll 8y ago
On the internet, there is a supportive community for every possible opinion humans can have.

NotAnEconomist 8y ago

So it's the same logic as, "Well, we should let them do heroin -- just try to make it as safe as possible"? Seems like a meme we should minimize the transmission of, to me. > Consider that there is essentially nothing that medical science has for people who are chronically fat except a gastric sleeve. It also yields ridiculous statements like this. Medical science has some very clear advice for fat people: eat less and exercise more. They're making an entire movement to justify why they're lazy and undisciplined.

Afton 8y ago
What do you think Safe Injection sites are, if not exactly that?
- NotAnEconomist 8y ago
  Yes -- that's the logic I was referring to. However "safe injection sites" are anything but safe to the surrounding community, and may increase usage rates while only mildly decreasing fatality rates. By keeping the sickly ones around, we're actually making the whole herd less healthy -- particularly when we enable them spreading their illness. I think the medical professionals involved in "safe injection sites" should be seriously questioned about their medical ethics: they're failing to quarantine sick patients, and in treating them without that buffer, spreading the disease to the healthy population. It's quack "medicine", just like HAES/HAMS.
  - diminoten 8y ago
    Are you implying we kill/let die the "sickly"? Seems extreme...
    - minikites 8y ago
      It's the entire Republican plan for healthcare: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_big_idea/2011/09/let_him_die.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_big_idea... >Blitzer pressed the point. "But, Congressman, are you saying the society should just let him die?" At that point, the rabble erupted in cheers and whoops of "Yeah!"

brobdingnagians 8y ago

Most people in history were _not_ fat. It used to be _hard_ to be fat. Modern society and sedentary jobs make it harder to not be fat, so it takes discipline and hobbies like hiking and working out to actually get physical activity, and healthy diet is the key element. When everyone is eating processed food and doing very little during a typical day, it is hard to not be fat, but that doesn't mean we should accept that, we should push for a healthier society. There are things about lifespan, but also quality of life, ability to think, dealing with stress, _huge_ mental health effects, etc. Our entire society would improve if we decided to change things instead of giving up.

minikites 8y ago
How well is your strategy of "blaming individuals" working out? Should we blame them even harder to see if that works more often?
Navarr 8y ago
Obviously we should push for a healthier society, but that doesn't necessarily mean we should shame those who do not have a fit body size. Don't forget that in many circumstances cooking and hobbies like working out and hiking and such can be privileged. Someone working two jobs to get by probably doesn't have the funds for a gym membership or to go out hiking, and might not even have the mental energy to. And then cooking healthy food is surprisingly expensive and time consuming when compared to processed foods. So yes, absolutely, we should push for a healthier society, but at the same time we should accept that there are valid reasons someone might not be fit, and we shouldn't shame them for that. Instead, we should try to improve the situations that cause it as much as we can within our abilities.
- brobdingnagians 8y ago
  Not shaming, but that is a false dichotomy. I don't want to go around condemning people; I just don't think telling them everything is okay and letting them die young is a good idea. There are many other options to take; better education on the topic, better culture around work, better pay, better childhood involvement in activity, less videogames, etc. It isn't just a poverty issue and it is getting worse in all levels of society.

Waterluvian 8y ago

It's complicated. On one hand you don't want to foster mental health issues by constantly reinforcing to people that their weight is wrong and bad. On the other hand, you probably don't want to excuse a physiologically unhealthy condition by calling it "healthy". I don't have an answer. I was fit until I hit university and now I'm struggling with my weight constantly. I'm committed to trying. Losing weight. Getting in a healthy habit. Relapsing. Dozens of times in a decade. But what I don't ever want to do is declare that I'm just healthy at any size and therefore throw in the towel. The grim reaper doesn't give a crap what I think healthy means.

Afton 8y ago
I think you are seeing what I'm trying to say. It's not like most fat people are not aware that they're fat, and not aware that that is a problem. They are just exhausted with trying to change it. Particularly for people who have "always" been fat. Consider that being fat might be better for you than alternating between eating disorders and being fat, which is the choice that a non-trivial number of fat people are faced with.

koboll 8y ago

>HAES is a reaction that says "What if we accepted that some people are just going to be fat, and then tried to come up with ways of being as healthy as possible given the circumstances". You may not like the packaging that HAES comes wrapped up in, and the most vocal proponents of it are often the least interested in making it palatable to you. But it's not BS. If that was all it was saying, I'd be onboard. But it also says things like "losing weight is literally impossible!", and "there is no evidence that obesity is unhealthy!" and then cherry-picks and misconstrues research so that it seems to give scientific backing to those conclusions, which are deeply harmful lies.

Afton 8y ago
No, people say these things. This is cherry-picking as well. Again, lots of fat-acceptance people aren't stupid, they have just decided to pick their battles.

towelr34dy 8y ago

Let's reconsider this position using some other example: Healthy on Heroin. HOH HOH is not BS. Here's the deal. For lots and lots of people, being not addicted to heroin is very very hard. So hard, that even though there is enormous social pressure that they've had basically from ~18 years old to however old they are, they still haven't managed to become clean for any significant length of time. HOH is a reaction that says "What if we accepted that some people are just going to be heroin addicts, and then tried to come up with ways of being as healthy as possible given the circumstances". You may not like the packaging that HOH comes wrapped up in, and the most vocal proponents of it are often the least interested in making it palatable to you. But it's not BS. Consider that there is essentially nothing that medical science has for people who are chronically addicted to heroin except a detox. Shit is hard, yo.

QuotedForTruth 8y ago
You chose a pretty poor example. Have you ever heard of methadone? Its literally accepting that someone will be addicted to opiates for a long time or life and then giving them a healthier alternative that doesnt try to change that. https://www.crchealth.com/addiction/heroin-addiction-treatment/heroin-detox/methadone_life/ https://www.crchealth.com/addiction/heroin-addiction-treatme...
- towelr34dy 8y ago
  Yeah, see, no one is bothered by that because no one is saying: Be proud of your true heroin addicted self. Show it to the world. IF they don't accept your heroin addiction THEY ARE wrong. See. If any movement said that, I'd be against it. Because they are trying to remove stigma from something that SHOULD HAVE IT.
bitcrusher 8y ago
Let's reconsider this position using some other example: Such a shame that the "healthy at any genetic condition" BS is so popular these days. Literally killing people.
- 8y ago

wvenable 8y ago

You can be fit and still be fat though. I've been working out with a personal trainer for a couple of years now and I'm significantly healthier and stronger than I was before I started but I haven't lost the gut (yet). If HAES is just an excuse to not try and be fit, it is going to kill people.

Afton 8y ago
Some people will use it for that. Others won't.
- wvenable 8y ago
  I don't see what else the "movement" would be used for. If you are obese than you are unhealthy. It might be hard to be hard to maybe impossible to improve that but it doesn't suddenly become "healthy" because of that.

a11595 8y ago

Plenty. I'm very fit all my life, but as I have gotten older, metabolism slowed down, less time and energy, I am still exactly as fit as I was, and still eat w/o a diet, often before bed. What's changed: every morning I wear an ab belt while getting ready for work. With every greasy mean I pop an orlistat. I wear a couple of electrodes on my chest/back/arms under my shirt while at work, instead of a workout most days. 5'11, 170lb, 6% bodyfat, bench 300 20 times. This is 100% because of medical science, because I'm a lazy 40yo slob. Just a really fit one despite the daily cake and pizza before bed.

matchbok 8y ago

It's impossible to create matter out of nothing. Dieting works and will always work. Not saying it's easy, but waving off obesity as incurable is crazy.