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This is so true. I went to Shanghai about 3 summers ago right when Denver was finishing up the "A Line" train from Downtown to the Airport. This project cost ov

This is so true. I went to Shanghai about 3 summers ago right when Denver was finishing up the "A Line" train from Downtown to the Airport. This project cost over a billion dollars and the damn thing can't run smoothly or stay operational. Tons of issues. Meanwhile we took the Maglev train from the Pudong Airport to the Shanghai City Center. The Maglev cost $1.2 billion dollars [1]. The train can travel up to 270 MPH [1]; it takes about 15 minutes to get from the Airport to the city. The Denver train? 45 minutes, goes somewhere around 45 MPH for $1.1 billion dollars [2]. The train in China goes 6x faster then the Denver train. [1] http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/go_east_young_man/2005/03/mines_faster_than_yours.html http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/go_east_young_man/2005/03... [2] https://pagetwo.completecolorado.com/2016/05/31/otoole-taking-rtds-billion-dollar-a-train/ https://pagetwo.completecolorado.com/2016/05/31/otoole-takin...

beamatronic 8y ago
We could have that too if our government had unchecked eminent domain power. Is that what we want? Seems to be one or the other.
- mcculley 8y ago
  I am not convinced that lack of unchecked eminent domain power is the only thing keeping the United States from building modern infrastructure.
  - Mizza 8y ago
    I've been on the train that OP is talking about. It's only possible because they built it through the slums, which are essentially in medieval conditions. The train terminates in the region where the people had enough political/actual capital to object to it going through their neighborhood. But it is very, very fast.
    - mcculley 8y ago
      I’m not disputing that other communities benefit from unchecked eminent domain power. I see lots of other problems in the United States more fundamental than land acquisition.
- orev 8y ago
  Not saying it’s the solution, but giving the government that power might incentivize people to be more involved with local government and demand more accountability. Right now nobody really pays attention to what they are doing.
  - marnett 8y ago
    The US government could build out infrastructure if it desired. We did in the past and we could today. It doesn't meet the profit margins that the MIC can.
  - jjeaff 8y ago
    Hmm, nobody pays attention... So let's give the government even more power... Maybe that will wake everyone up. And it doesn't really matter how involved you are in local politics. The federal government can already take your land with emminent domain.
- marnett 8y ago
  The U.S. federal government used unchecked eminent domain power when building out interstate system infrastructure. So this is not really applicable.
- snowwrestler 8y ago
  U.S. governments basically do have unchecked eminent domain power, see the Kelo Supreme Court decision.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Varcht 8y ago
  Helps to have millions of workers willing to work for pennies a day as well. edit: I guess that is redundant under unchecked eminent domain power.
  - baby 8y ago
    you mean waiters in the US?
    - seandoe 8y ago
      Waiters and service industry people have done pretty well in every state I've lived in... minimum wage plus tips would equate to $20-$30/hr or more. But I could see it being tougher in states where the minimum wage is far less for service industry jobs.
      - cannonedhamster 8y ago
        Waiters and some service industries where tips are expected are not paid standard minimum wage typically. They are paid a separate, lower minimum wage which essentially pays the tax and are taxed on income expected even if they don't receive 15% tip.
        barrow-rider 8y ago
        In VA that was $2.13/hr + tips, with tips to be declared at the end of the shift. Obviously, you could declare lower tips than what you made, but if the customers paid by credit cards then you could get nailed if/when you got audited; cash was a different story. If your hours + declared tips were less than minimum wage then they had to pay you minimum wage. That only happened at one large chain I worked at but not at the local, one-off places. Tips were large enough on weekends that it didn't matter much, or at least not enough to risk your job complaining. The locally run bars I worked at didn't care about tip ratios, but the corporate chains expected you to average 18% tips and would penalize you if you were pulling less than 13% for several weeks -- cuz it either meant you were absolutely terrible at your job, or else you were lying.
- simplecomplex 8y ago
  Having a political party that wasn’t intent on destroying the government itself would be a start. A president that isn’t a man child too.
- ordinaryradical 8y ago
  It seems like everyone forgets this when these kind of stories appear. Soft authoritarianism looks impressive in these kind of results, but its means are often ugly if not anathema to Western values. Hitler built the autobahn, a road system that is still enviable to this day—doesn't mean we want the system of governance that guided this project into being. This isn't a necessary dichotomy either, you can invest in infrastructure without being authoritarian. But I think we celebrate China forgetting how some of these projects are greased through the system and carried out.
- Redoubts 8y ago
  Given how far California has swung in the other direction; yes, yes I do.
- coldtea 8y ago
  Because good construction projects take "unchecked eminent domain power"? Japan, Korea, EU countries et al seem to make modern train lines and other infrastructure just fine without that. Or how about modernizing the NYC subway for example? No "domain power" needed for that, just political will...
- Haga 8y ago
  Like in Europe?
77pt77 8y ago
> Meanwhile we took the Maglev train from the Pudong Airport to the Shanghai City Center This has been operational since 2002/2004 so about 15 years ago.
- snow_mac 8y ago
  precisely. The Denver train was brand new and went 1/6 the speed as a 15 year old train!
nikofeyn 8y ago
and that maglev train is basically a show piece and was considered way too expensive to develop. the high-speed trains in china aren't as fast, but they are still fast, quite cheap, as smooth as the maglev, comfortable, and most importantly, convenient in terms of their stops. so the u.s. is getting destroyed in regional travel options. it's embarassing.
- taobility 8y ago
  US has self driving cars, which is much fancy.
jaredklewis 8y ago
And in case anyone doesn’t realize just how far behind US trains are, consider that Japan built its first bullet trains in the 1950s, when they went 130 mph. Today, Japan’s bullet trains have top speeds as high as 250 mph. The technology to build fast trains has existed for more than 60 years.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
walrus01 8y ago
I wouldn't really say that the Shanghai transrapid maglev train is a great example to use, since it was a one-off showpiece thing. Transrapid (the german company) is now pretty much defunct and its test track is demolished. Traditional high speed rail is booming in China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China
eplanit 8y ago
Amazing -- they get a Maglev train for $1.2B, and in only 2.5 years of construction[1]. Meanwhile, in San Francisco, we get a [flawed] bridge for $6+B that took 11 years to build[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_maglev_train#Construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_maglev_train#Construc... [2] https://www.citylab.com/equity/2015/10/from-250-million-to-65-billion-the-bay-bridge-cost-overrun/410254/ https://www.citylab.com/equity/2015/10/from-250-million-to-6...
- taobility 8y ago
  Another example is about Boston's Big Dig. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig $6 billions with 15 years for 1.5 miles tunnel. What a horrible project!
  - cannonedhamster 8y ago
    Sadly it was supposed to be a nicer project, but the person who finally got it under control wasn't at the helm from the beginning. I suspect it would be far better if he had. :(
deevolution 8y ago
Car is king in the US. Theres no hope for a robust, reliable and fast mass transit system in the US. Driverless cars and are our only hope.
jjeaff 8y ago
Well, median income in China is less than $3,000 and in the US it's around $55k. So if their project cost more, that leaves a lot of slack time to engineer the train to go faster. So potentially nearly 20x more man hours to get a train 6x faster.

beamatronic 8y ago

We could have that too if our government had unchecked eminent domain power. Is that what we want? Seems to be one or the other.

mcculley 8y ago
I am not convinced that lack of unchecked eminent domain power is the only thing keeping the United States from building modern infrastructure.
- Mizza 8y ago
  I've been on the train that OP is talking about. It's only possible because they built it through the slums, which are essentially in medieval conditions. The train terminates in the region where the people had enough political/actual capital to object to it going through their neighborhood. But it is very, very fast.
  - mcculley 8y ago
    I’m not disputing that other communities benefit from unchecked eminent domain power. I see lots of other problems in the United States more fundamental than land acquisition.
orev 8y ago
Not saying it’s the solution, but giving the government that power might incentivize people to be more involved with local government and demand more accountability. Right now nobody really pays attention to what they are doing.
- marnett 8y ago
  The US government could build out infrastructure if it desired. We did in the past and we could today. It doesn't meet the profit margins that the MIC can.
- jjeaff 8y ago
  Hmm, nobody pays attention... So let's give the government even more power... Maybe that will wake everyone up. And it doesn't really matter how involved you are in local politics. The federal government can already take your land with emminent domain.
marnett 8y ago
The U.S. federal government used unchecked eminent domain power when building out interstate system infrastructure. So this is not really applicable.
snowwrestler 8y ago
U.S. governments basically do have unchecked eminent domain power, see the Kelo Supreme Court decision.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Varcht 8y ago
Helps to have millions of workers willing to work for pennies a day as well. edit: I guess that is redundant under unchecked eminent domain power.
- baby 8y ago
  you mean waiters in the US?
  - seandoe 8y ago
    Waiters and service industry people have done pretty well in every state I've lived in... minimum wage plus tips would equate to $20-$30/hr or more. But I could see it being tougher in states where the minimum wage is far less for service industry jobs.
    - cannonedhamster 8y ago
      Waiters and some service industries where tips are expected are not paid standard minimum wage typically. They are paid a separate, lower minimum wage which essentially pays the tax and are taxed on income expected even if they don't receive 15% tip.
      - barrow-rider 8y ago
        In VA that was $2.13/hr + tips, with tips to be declared at the end of the shift. Obviously, you could declare lower tips than what you made, but if the customers paid by credit cards then you could get nailed if/when you got audited; cash was a different story. If your hours + declared tips were less than minimum wage then they had to pay you minimum wage. That only happened at one large chain I worked at but not at the local, one-off places. Tips were large enough on weekends that it didn't matter much, or at least not enough to risk your job complaining. The locally run bars I worked at didn't care about tip ratios, but the corporate chains expected you to average 18% tips and would penalize you if you were pulling less than 13% for several weeks -- cuz it either meant you were absolutely terrible at your job, or else you were lying.
simplecomplex 8y ago
Having a political party that wasn’t intent on destroying the government itself would be a start. A president that isn’t a man child too.
ordinaryradical 8y ago
It seems like everyone forgets this when these kind of stories appear. Soft authoritarianism looks impressive in these kind of results, but its means are often ugly if not anathema to Western values. Hitler built the autobahn, a road system that is still enviable to this day—doesn't mean we want the system of governance that guided this project into being. This isn't a necessary dichotomy either, you can invest in infrastructure without being authoritarian. But I think we celebrate China forgetting how some of these projects are greased through the system and carried out.
Redoubts 8y ago
Given how far California has swung in the other direction; yes, yes I do.
coldtea 8y ago
Because good construction projects take "unchecked eminent domain power"? Japan, Korea, EU countries et al seem to make modern train lines and other infrastructure just fine without that. Or how about modernizing the NYC subway for example? No "domain power" needed for that, just political will...
Haga 8y ago
Like in Europe?

77pt77 8y ago

> Meanwhile we took the Maglev train from the Pudong Airport to the Shanghai City Center This has been operational since 2002/2004 so about 15 years ago.

snow_mac 8y ago
precisely. The Denver train was brand new and went 1/6 the speed as a 15 year old train!

nikofeyn 8y ago

and that maglev train is basically a show piece and was considered way too expensive to develop. the high-speed trains in china aren't as fast, but they are still fast, quite cheap, as smooth as the maglev, comfortable, and most importantly, convenient in terms of their stops. so the u.s. is getting destroyed in regional travel options. it's embarassing.

taobility 8y ago
US has self driving cars, which is much fancy.

jaredklewis 8y ago

And in case anyone doesn’t realize just how far behind US trains are, consider that Japan built its first bullet trains in the 1950s, when they went 130 mph. Today, Japan’s bullet trains have top speeds as high as 250 mph. The technology to build fast trains has existed for more than 60 years.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

walrus01 8y ago

I wouldn't really say that the Shanghai transrapid maglev train is a great example to use, since it was a one-off showpiece thing. Transrapid (the german company) is now pretty much defunct and its test track is demolished. Traditional high speed rail is booming in China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China

eplanit 8y ago

Amazing -- they get a Maglev train for $1.2B, and in only 2.5 years of construction[1]. Meanwhile, in San Francisco, we get a [flawed] bridge for $6+B that took 11 years to build[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_maglev_train#Construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_maglev_train#Construc... [2] https://www.citylab.com/equity/2015/10/from-250-million-to-65-billion-the-bay-bridge-cost-overrun/410254/ https://www.citylab.com/equity/2015/10/from-250-million-to-6...

taobility 8y ago
Another example is about Boston's Big Dig. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig $6 billions with 15 years for 1.5 miles tunnel. What a horrible project!
- cannonedhamster 8y ago
  Sadly it was supposed to be a nicer project, but the person who finally got it under control wasn't at the helm from the beginning. I suspect it would be far better if he had. :(

deevolution 8y ago

Car is king in the US. Theres no hope for a robust, reliable and fast mass transit system in the US. Driverless cars and are our only hope.

jjeaff 8y ago

Well, median income in China is less than $3,000 and in the US it's around $55k. So if their project cost more, that leaves a lot of slack time to engineer the train to go faster. So potentially nearly 20x more man hours to get a train 6x faster.