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Alright, so dealer's choice on who you want to believe: * cancer.net? https://www.cancer.net/navigating-cancer-care/prevention-and-healthy-living/stopping-toba

Alright, so dealer's choice on who you want to believe: * cancer.net? https://www.cancer.net/navigating-cancer-care/prevention-and-healthy-living/stopping-tobacco-use-after-cancer-diagnosis/health-risks-e-cigarettes-smokeless-tobacco-and-waterpipes https://www.cancer.net/navigating-cancer-care/prevention-and... * CDC? https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/basic_information/e-cigarettes/Quick-Facts-on-the-Risks-of-E-cigarettes-for-Kids-Teens-and-Young-Adults.html https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/basic_information/e-cigarettes/Q... * Harvard? https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/electronic-cigarettes-good-news-bad-news-2016072510010 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/electronic-cigarettes-go... * Stanford? https://med.stanford.edu/content/dam/sm/tobaccopreventiontoolkit/documents/ecigarettes/Risks%20of%20E-Cigarette%20Factsheet.pdf https://med.stanford.edu/content/dam/sm/tobaccopreventiontoo... I think it's pretty far from "harmless".

tsmarsh 8y ago
Thank you for the links. I did read them, but failed to reach the conclusion “pretty far from “harmless””. It sounds like an understudied but potentially very safe mechanism for nicotine delivery. The big issue seams to be poor behaviour from companies like JUUL, and large quaestions around dosing for adolescents. I honestly couldn’t tell you from those links if I should be more concerned about nicotine, sugar, caffeine, THC, or alcohol. At this point I suspect that I should be more worried about soda than vaping.
- jsjohns2 8y ago
  Also an excellent read on the subject: https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine
- diminoten 8y ago
  > Even still, the mounting evidence shows that these devices are not harmless. > Chronic nicotine exposure may lead to insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes, although this risk may be offset by the well-known appetite suppressant effects of nicotine. Inhaled nicotine increases heart rate and blood pressure. Nicotine is highly addictive in its own right, and it may lead to changes in the brain that increase the risk of addiction to other drugs, especially in young people. Nicotine may also impair prefrontal brain development in adolescents, leading to attention deficit disorder and poor impulse control. These potential harms of nicotine are particularly worrisome in view of soaring rates of e-cigarette use in U.S. teenagers. > Using nicotine in adolescence can harm the parts of the brain that control attention, learning, mood, and impulse control. > Many people incorrectly believe that these devices produce a water vapor when in fact they create aerosols that contain harmful chemicals, and ultra-fine particles that are inhaled into the lungs and out into the environment, making them harmful to the user and others nearby. I guess you're assuming people aren't going to read the actual links? Further, this isn't a zero sum game; you can be worried about soda and e-cigs. It bothers me more than it probably should, your attitude. You're letting this stuff ruin lives all because you want to get high.
  - mruts 8y ago
    What about the positive effects of nicotine? Are you saying that the negative effects out weight the good? Or are you just opposed to anything that gets you "high."?
    - diminoten 8y ago
      PCP also gives you immense strength. Let's give our kids PCP! Short term advantages don't make up for long term consequences. Edit: I'm sorry, that was overly snarky. I should be clear, I don't give a shit what adults do to themselves. My sole concern is this normalization of nicotine reaching kids. They're being marketed to very strongly with this "it's safe!" argument, which doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
      - mruts 8y ago
        I mean, maybe not. But it's a personal decision.
  - cwkoss 8y ago
    > Using nicotine in adolescence can harm the parts of the brain that control attention, learning, mood, and impulse control. There is evidence that individuals with ADHD are more likely to become tobacco users. I would be careful about inferring causality on this point.
  - tsmarsh 8y ago
    Hey, I think you jumped to another conclusion. I'm not a smoker, vaper or toker. And I did read your links. I'm even reading your quotes, and I don't reach your conclusion. The language used here is defensive and deliberately vague: Using X in adolescence can harm the parts of the brain that control attention, learning, mood, and impulse control. X could be almost any activity and be true. Without quantification it even applies to water and O2 consumption. Its the sort of languages our scientists at work use when they not ready to make assertions and would like more money to do research. > These potential harms of nicotine are particularly worrisome in view of soaring rates of e-cigarette use in U.S. teenagers This is an appeal to demonstrate that the research should happen soon, not a statement that harm is happening now. Its a sales trigger not a statement of fact. They would like money now, to do research on a topic that I agree, should get significant funding. I am worried about soda and e-cigs. I'm not sure I'm not more worried about soda, than e-cigs and that seems contrary to social norms at the moment. e-cigs _might_ trigger addictive personalities, and the _might_ marginally increase blood pressure. Soda will rot your teeth, and it will put pressure on your insulin system and it does cause obesity - all in very short order, especially given my families genetics. I'm not sure how you get to the statement "ruin lives" from our interaction at all. Quite the opposite. New things are inherently risky. We drank milk for generations without research. It literally killed children who couldn't digest lactase, but also saw the average height and muscle mass of adults increase dramatically in adults that could. If we'd have had science, would we have banned milk? Would we have delayed people from enjoying milk until we reached scientific consensus? Should we ban milk now that we know that 85% of the global population is still lactose intolerant and that its strongly linked with heart disease? If I'd been similarly on the fence about milk 10k years ago, would you have accused me of ruining lives then as well? Getting dosing right has also been an issue. Even opiods have safe, non addictive dosing levels for the vast majority of humans. JUUL Pods sound like everclear being marketed as shandy. That needs to be addressed, not necessarily banned. There is a reason whisky is sold at 40% and its not because thats how it comes out of the barrel. We probably need legistlation that marks JUUL as different similar to how we split liquor from beer. I'm also concerned that we're very good at figuring out how to make a product addictive. And whilst I'm happy to point fingers at big tobacco as they engineered tobacco plants that cigarettes more addictive, we should also look at nestle, kraft and coke cola. Ever wondered why, even though you probably don't like it, Kraft Macaroni Cheese is so compelling? Or why Skyrim and WoW feel so compelling even though the rewards are so sparse?
mruts 8y ago
Maybe harmless is too strong a word. We don't have enough data to really know about E-cigs at the moment, but nicotine doesn't have any deleterious health effects, in fact, quite the opposite; nicotine is good for you. When we are talking about E-cigs, it's good to keep in mind the alternative, smoking tobacco. Smoking cigarettes is absolutely terrible for your health, something like 2/3s of life-long smokers die of tobacco related issues. I highly doubt E-cigs are even 1/000th are harmful, in terms of long-term outcomes.
- simion314 8y ago
  > it's good to keep in mind the alternative, smoking tobacco OR not sell and advertise to children? It is proven that there is damage to young people so let's admit that the problem exists and find a way to protect the young but let the adults smoke or do whatever they want.
  - mruts 8y ago
    I mean do you think it really makes a difference? Kids have been doing drugs and drinking and having sex for as long as anybody remembers. Teens are genetically programmed to engage in risky behavior, it's a very old evolutionary adaptation. I don't think you or anyone else is ever going to be able to change that.
    - simion314 8y ago
      The cigarettes usage dropped after we did something about it, so why are you against of informing parents and children about the reality, what I think we should investigate as a possible action: 1 write all the downsides on the packaging similar as for cigarettes 2 do not allow products that target children, I am referring to products with bright colors and candy aromas etc I believe that the society can do a difference, it is true that some kids will use drugs, alcohol but those will usually have a problem at home, what we need to stop is having regular kids using e-cigarettes because they think are safe and cool.
      - 8y ago
HillaryBriss 8y ago
certain widely eaten food plants contain small amounts of nicotine: tomatoes, potatoes, eggplants, chili peppers, even some kinds of tea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Occurrence_and_biosynthesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Occurrence_and_biosyn... so billions of people are consuming a little bit of nicotine all the time. OTOH, wikipedia notes a few adverse effects, especially for children and during pregnancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Adverse_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Adverse_effects
- diminoten 8y ago
  It's the volume of nicotine, not presence, that causes the problem.
  - sifoobar 8y ago
    Says who? I occasionally smoke Nicotiana Rustica, or farmers tobacco; which is plenty stronger than regular tobacco. And it's less addictive, even helps some people to quit because their bodies finally get all the nicotine they've been craving. And not surprisingly it's forbidden to sell it in most countries. Someone fucked around with regular tobacco, that seems pretty obvious from here. It's basically designed to hook you more effectively and make you sicker by raising the nicotine levels really quick and then dropping them like a stone. Which I assume is exactly what they're doing with the vaping liquids/salts as well. Profits, returning customers; who gives a shit about the world?
    - diminoten 8y ago
      Says the links above? I didn't make it up, if that's what you're asking...

tsmarsh 8y ago

Thank you for the links. I did read them, but failed to reach the conclusion “pretty far from “harmless””. It sounds like an understudied but potentially very safe mechanism for nicotine delivery. The big issue seams to be poor behaviour from companies like JUUL, and large quaestions around dosing for adolescents. I honestly couldn’t tell you from those links if I should be more concerned about nicotine, sugar, caffeine, THC, or alcohol. At this point I suspect that I should be more worried about soda than vaping.

jsjohns2 8y ago
Also an excellent read on the subject: https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine
diminoten 8y ago
> Even still, the mounting evidence shows that these devices are not harmless. > Chronic nicotine exposure may lead to insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes, although this risk may be offset by the well-known appetite suppressant effects of nicotine. Inhaled nicotine increases heart rate and blood pressure. Nicotine is highly addictive in its own right, and it may lead to changes in the brain that increase the risk of addiction to other drugs, especially in young people. Nicotine may also impair prefrontal brain development in adolescents, leading to attention deficit disorder and poor impulse control. These potential harms of nicotine are particularly worrisome in view of soaring rates of e-cigarette use in U.S. teenagers. > Using nicotine in adolescence can harm the parts of the brain that control attention, learning, mood, and impulse control. > Many people incorrectly believe that these devices produce a water vapor when in fact they create aerosols that contain harmful chemicals, and ultra-fine particles that are inhaled into the lungs and out into the environment, making them harmful to the user and others nearby. I guess you're assuming people aren't going to read the actual links? Further, this isn't a zero sum game; you can be worried about soda and e-cigs. It bothers me more than it probably should, your attitude. You're letting this stuff ruin lives all because you want to get high.
- mruts 8y ago
  What about the positive effects of nicotine? Are you saying that the negative effects out weight the good? Or are you just opposed to anything that gets you "high."?
  - diminoten 8y ago
    PCP also gives you immense strength. Let's give our kids PCP! Short term advantages don't make up for long term consequences. Edit: I'm sorry, that was overly snarky. I should be clear, I don't give a shit what adults do to themselves. My sole concern is this normalization of nicotine reaching kids. They're being marketed to very strongly with this "it's safe!" argument, which doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
    - mruts 8y ago
      I mean, maybe not. But it's a personal decision.
- cwkoss 8y ago
  > Using nicotine in adolescence can harm the parts of the brain that control attention, learning, mood, and impulse control. There is evidence that individuals with ADHD are more likely to become tobacco users. I would be careful about inferring causality on this point.
- tsmarsh 8y ago
  Hey, I think you jumped to another conclusion. I'm not a smoker, vaper or toker. And I did read your links. I'm even reading your quotes, and I don't reach your conclusion. The language used here is defensive and deliberately vague: Using X in adolescence can harm the parts of the brain that control attention, learning, mood, and impulse control. X could be almost any activity and be true. Without quantification it even applies to water and O2 consumption. Its the sort of languages our scientists at work use when they not ready to make assertions and would like more money to do research. > These potential harms of nicotine are particularly worrisome in view of soaring rates of e-cigarette use in U.S. teenagers This is an appeal to demonstrate that the research should happen soon, not a statement that harm is happening now. Its a sales trigger not a statement of fact. They would like money now, to do research on a topic that I agree, should get significant funding. I am worried about soda and e-cigs. I'm not sure I'm not more worried about soda, than e-cigs and that seems contrary to social norms at the moment. e-cigs _might_ trigger addictive personalities, and the _might_ marginally increase blood pressure. Soda will rot your teeth, and it will put pressure on your insulin system and it does cause obesity - all in very short order, especially given my families genetics. I'm not sure how you get to the statement "ruin lives" from our interaction at all. Quite the opposite. New things are inherently risky. We drank milk for generations without research. It literally killed children who couldn't digest lactase, but also saw the average height and muscle mass of adults increase dramatically in adults that could. If we'd have had science, would we have banned milk? Would we have delayed people from enjoying milk until we reached scientific consensus? Should we ban milk now that we know that 85% of the global population is still lactose intolerant and that its strongly linked with heart disease? If I'd been similarly on the fence about milk 10k years ago, would you have accused me of ruining lives then as well? Getting dosing right has also been an issue. Even opiods have safe, non addictive dosing levels for the vast majority of humans. JUUL Pods sound like everclear being marketed as shandy. That needs to be addressed, not necessarily banned. There is a reason whisky is sold at 40% and its not because thats how it comes out of the barrel. We probably need legistlation that marks JUUL as different similar to how we split liquor from beer. I'm also concerned that we're very good at figuring out how to make a product addictive. And whilst I'm happy to point fingers at big tobacco as they engineered tobacco plants that cigarettes more addictive, we should also look at nestle, kraft and coke cola. Ever wondered why, even though you probably don't like it, Kraft Macaroni Cheese is so compelling? Or why Skyrim and WoW feel so compelling even though the rewards are so sparse?

mruts 8y ago

Maybe harmless is too strong a word. We don't have enough data to really know about E-cigs at the moment, but nicotine doesn't have any deleterious health effects, in fact, quite the opposite; nicotine is good for you. When we are talking about E-cigs, it's good to keep in mind the alternative, smoking tobacco. Smoking cigarettes is absolutely terrible for your health, something like 2/3s of life-long smokers die of tobacco related issues. I highly doubt E-cigs are even 1/000th are harmful, in terms of long-term outcomes.

simion314 8y ago
> it's good to keep in mind the alternative, smoking tobacco OR not sell and advertise to children? It is proven that there is damage to young people so let's admit that the problem exists and find a way to protect the young but let the adults smoke or do whatever they want.
- mruts 8y ago
  I mean do you think it really makes a difference? Kids have been doing drugs and drinking and having sex for as long as anybody remembers. Teens are genetically programmed to engage in risky behavior, it's a very old evolutionary adaptation. I don't think you or anyone else is ever going to be able to change that.
  - simion314 8y ago
    The cigarettes usage dropped after we did something about it, so why are you against of informing parents and children about the reality, what I think we should investigate as a possible action: 1 write all the downsides on the packaging similar as for cigarettes 2 do not allow products that target children, I am referring to products with bright colors and candy aromas etc I believe that the society can do a difference, it is true that some kids will use drugs, alcohol but those will usually have a problem at home, what we need to stop is having regular kids using e-cigarettes because they think are safe and cool.
    - 8y ago

HillaryBriss 8y ago

certain widely eaten food plants contain small amounts of nicotine: tomatoes, potatoes, eggplants, chili peppers, even some kinds of tea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Occurrence_and_biosynthesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Occurrence_and_biosyn... so billions of people are consuming a little bit of nicotine all the time. OTOH, wikipedia notes a few adverse effects, especially for children and during pregnancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Adverse_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Adverse_effects

diminoten 8y ago
It's the volume of nicotine, not presence, that causes the problem.
- sifoobar 8y ago
  Says who? I occasionally smoke Nicotiana Rustica, or farmers tobacco; which is plenty stronger than regular tobacco. And it's less addictive, even helps some people to quit because their bodies finally get all the nicotine they've been craving. And not surprisingly it's forbidden to sell it in most countries. Someone fucked around with regular tobacco, that seems pretty obvious from here. It's basically designed to hook you more effectively and make you sicker by raising the nicotine levels really quick and then dropping them like a stone. Which I assume is exactly what they're doing with the vaping liquids/salts as well. Profits, returning customers; who gives a shit about the world?
  - diminoten 8y ago
    Says the links above? I didn't make it up, if that's what you're asking...