5 ms·

Most likely why they aggressively hire college grads and keep the developer workforce young. I doubt they teach corporate ethics in any comp sci program.

foolrush 8y ago
Ethics, labour, and politics are intertwined. A single parent risks blacklisting and imploding a means of income, for example. Markets regulate themselves to a profit driven “ethics” solution that reverberates.
ardy42 8y ago
> I doubt they teach corporate ethics in any comp sci program. Actually, when I was in school, there actually was an extensive ethics module in one of the required courses, and I think it was required by an accreditation body or the ACM. It also felt like it was used to satisfy some kind of writing-intensive course requirement, since it consisted of banging out 10-page papers on various topics. Neither the professors nor the students took it very seriously because everyone was more interested in technology, not philosophy. It felt like it only existed to check-off a checkbox.
breitling 8y ago
If someone in their 20s doesn't know much about ethics, then we're doing something wrong, as a society.
- JansjoFromIkea 8y ago
  I'd imagine the issue is more that a recent graduate doesn't necessarily know when or how much to push back
  - geebee 8y ago
    It may also be futile to try to have a meaningful concept and practice of professional ethics without professional autonomy. The ABA and AMA take a lot of heat here on HN and other libertarian-leaning forums, and some of it is deserved, since they clearly do engage in cartel-like behavior. However, it is important to remember that they have established a set of laws and practices that give the members of the profession the ability to resist unethical commands from "superiors". For example, generally speaking, a non-lawyer can't own a law firm. Same for physicians. A lawyer must be licensed to practice, and that right can be revoked. A lawyer isn't allowed to say "my boss made me do it", but at the same time, a lawyer can't have a non-lawyer boss, and that boss can't legally go hire someone who isn't a lawyer (and isn't bound by a code of ethics) to do it instead. I want to be clear that I'm aware that in reality, it doesn't come close to working out this neatly. But the conceptual framework, at least, is there. I do think programmers are in an untenable position, when they are stripped of any professional strength but called on to resist unethical demands of clients and bosses. And yeah, I do mean stripped, not just denied. A large section of the programming workforce is employed under visa conditions where their employer controls their right to live and work in the US, as well as their position in a very long queue for a green card application. So we aren't just ordinary workers with no special protections but no special liabilities either, we are often a workforce that is particularly vulnerable and unable to push back against the orders of people who aren't ethical and aren't part of our "profession".
    - SilasX 8y ago
      This! Knowing that "this is wrong" is only half the battle. Having the political pull to actually push back and have fellow engineers behind you is the other blade of the scissors necessary to actually cut any wrongdoing. We have a word for "when everyone who pushes back against wrongdoing must go out on a limb and do it at tremendous personal expense": Gomorrah. (I mean, in the sense of wanton immorality, not the dubious sexual mores.)
- Abutere 8y ago
  That's just not the reality of it. You can't blame the young engineers, they simply don't understand what is going on and are eager to prove themselves. Also, anything at this large of a company is compartmentalized to the point that you might not even truly know what you are working on. The leadership however fully knows what is being done.
navait 8y ago
ABET requires an ethics course to get a computer science degree.
Abutere 8y ago
There was a great bit in Ken Burns' Vietnam where vets explained how young soldiers will do anything you tell them. It's a part of being young and ready to prove yourself that makes young men so great for war. The vet said that the officers/leadership should be blamed for atrocities committed by soldiers since young men don't philosophize about what they are doing. https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/05/29/ernst-juenger-war-memoir-born-soldier/ https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/05/29/ernst-juenger-war-m...
raydev 8y ago
Most of the young people getting hired by FAANG are grads from big name schools so they've most definitely taken one or two ethics courses. I think we're just seeing 22 year olds' ethics are collapsing when they're given $150k/year straight out of school.
- elliekelly 8y ago
  It's one thing to understand right from wrong. It's another thing entirely to expect a 22-year old, struggling to get on their feet, to look their boss or a VP in the eye and say "this is not ethical." You're asking them to risk everything: their job, their income, their reputation when they've only just begun. That's a big ask even for someone who has taken hundreds of ethics courses.
joefkelley 8y ago
I can only speak for Stanford when I was there, but almost every CS graduate took "Computers, Ethics and Public Policy" as it was the best way to satisfy the degree's "Technology in Society" requirement. In talking to friends and coworkers it sounds like taking an ethics course was more common than not.

foolrush 8y ago

Ethics, labour, and politics are intertwined. A single parent risks blacklisting and imploding a means of income, for example. Markets regulate themselves to a profit driven “ethics” solution that reverberates.

ardy42 8y ago

> I doubt they teach corporate ethics in any comp sci program. Actually, when I was in school, there actually was an extensive ethics module in one of the required courses, and I think it was required by an accreditation body or the ACM. It also felt like it was used to satisfy some kind of writing-intensive course requirement, since it consisted of banging out 10-page papers on various topics. Neither the professors nor the students took it very seriously because everyone was more interested in technology, not philosophy. It felt like it only existed to check-off a checkbox.

breitling 8y ago

If someone in their 20s doesn't know much about ethics, then we're doing something wrong, as a society.

JansjoFromIkea 8y ago
I'd imagine the issue is more that a recent graduate doesn't necessarily know when or how much to push back
- geebee 8y ago
  It may also be futile to try to have a meaningful concept and practice of professional ethics without professional autonomy. The ABA and AMA take a lot of heat here on HN and other libertarian-leaning forums, and some of it is deserved, since they clearly do engage in cartel-like behavior. However, it is important to remember that they have established a set of laws and practices that give the members of the profession the ability to resist unethical commands from "superiors". For example, generally speaking, a non-lawyer can't own a law firm. Same for physicians. A lawyer must be licensed to practice, and that right can be revoked. A lawyer isn't allowed to say "my boss made me do it", but at the same time, a lawyer can't have a non-lawyer boss, and that boss can't legally go hire someone who isn't a lawyer (and isn't bound by a code of ethics) to do it instead. I want to be clear that I'm aware that in reality, it doesn't come close to working out this neatly. But the conceptual framework, at least, is there. I do think programmers are in an untenable position, when they are stripped of any professional strength but called on to resist unethical demands of clients and bosses. And yeah, I do mean stripped, not just denied. A large section of the programming workforce is employed under visa conditions where their employer controls their right to live and work in the US, as well as their position in a very long queue for a green card application. So we aren't just ordinary workers with no special protections but no special liabilities either, we are often a workforce that is particularly vulnerable and unable to push back against the orders of people who aren't ethical and aren't part of our "profession".
  - SilasX 8y ago
    This! Knowing that "this is wrong" is only half the battle. Having the political pull to actually push back and have fellow engineers behind you is the other blade of the scissors necessary to actually cut any wrongdoing. We have a word for "when everyone who pushes back against wrongdoing must go out on a limb and do it at tremendous personal expense": Gomorrah. (I mean, in the sense of wanton immorality, not the dubious sexual mores.)
Abutere 8y ago
That's just not the reality of it. You can't blame the young engineers, they simply don't understand what is going on and are eager to prove themselves. Also, anything at this large of a company is compartmentalized to the point that you might not even truly know what you are working on. The leadership however fully knows what is being done.

navait 8y ago

ABET requires an ethics course to get a computer science degree.

Abutere 8y ago

There was a great bit in Ken Burns' Vietnam where vets explained how young soldiers will do anything you tell them. It's a part of being young and ready to prove yourself that makes young men so great for war. The vet said that the officers/leadership should be blamed for atrocities committed by soldiers since young men don't philosophize about what they are doing. https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/05/29/ernst-juenger-war-memoir-born-soldier/ https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/05/29/ernst-juenger-war-m...

raydev 8y ago

Most of the young people getting hired by FAANG are grads from big name schools so they've most definitely taken one or two ethics courses. I think we're just seeing 22 year olds' ethics are collapsing when they're given $150k/year straight out of school.

elliekelly 8y ago
It's one thing to understand right from wrong. It's another thing entirely to expect a 22-year old, struggling to get on their feet, to look their boss or a VP in the eye and say "this is not ethical." You're asking them to risk everything: their job, their income, their reputation when they've only just begun. That's a big ask even for someone who has taken hundreds of ethics courses.

joefkelley 8y ago

I can only speak for Stanford when I was there, but almost every CS graduate took "Computers, Ethics and Public Policy" as it was the best way to satisfy the degree's "Technology in Society" requirement. In talking to friends and coworkers it sounds like taking an ethics course was more common than not.