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If they manage to reduce the cost of tunnel boring then that's super exciting and I congratulate them. But all this discussion of what to put in the tunnel see

If they manage to reduce the cost of tunnel boring then that's super exciting and I congratulate them. But all this discussion of what to put in the tunnel seems very silly to me. Are they just re-discovering subways? Do they know that there are subways in the world (e.g. Paris) that run out rubber tires?

ztjio 8y ago
During the presentation, Musk specifically compared to subways and how their vision is an improvement. I didn't and won't read the article, since I watched the presentation, but, if it doesn't even mention that fact, this article is a waste of time. The presentation was quite informative of their ideas and visions for using the tunnels and gave clear explanations of how their approach is superior to existing ones.
ohhhwell 8y ago
The problem with subway systems is that they are great once they have enough reach and stops to reliably and frequently get you were you need to go without needing a car. However, a small subway system with infrequent service and only a few stops isn't all that useful. If we take the claims here at face value (not saying we should) then this is a solution that provides value immediately for people commuting by car, and if the network becomes widespread enough it becomes easier to rely on it as a pedestrian. Essentially it might be a great way to bootstrap a transition to public transport in car-centric systems. Also note that if you get an increased amount of people commuting in these tunnels without their own cars, new public transportation built by the city becomes a lot more valuable as well, since there's already a lot of people getting around without cars. That said it is funny how private companies seem to rediscover public transport. Looking forward to Uber Train.
- xauronx 8y ago
  Uber buying a major cities metro system and making it not shitty would be pretty great. NYC subway is basically what taxis used to be, dirty and hostile toward the user.
  - ForHackernews 8y ago
    Since it seems VCs want to throw billions of dollars into a pit and set it on fire, I guess I'd prefer that pit were the NYC subway system rather than jitney cabs.
ForHackernews 8y ago
Yes, it seems like they're re-inventing subways (except with lower capacity), similar to how Lyft re-discovered the bus: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/06/lyft-reinvents-the-bus.html http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/06/lyft-reinvents-the-bu...
- hopler 8y ago
  Lyft shuttles are better buses. Better times, flexible routing, less road damage, and more comfortable rides. And they relieve pressure off the municipal system. It's a win-win, except for people who blame Lyft for public transit's flaws.
jillesvangurp 8y ago
Tunneling is currently so expensive that there are few companies doing any innovation on how to properly utilize them. A big part of the problem is actually digging them in a way that is cheap and scaleable. Another part of the problem is the organizations doing the digging and doing the exploitation are typically have misaligned incentives and goals. For example, expanding subway systems is currently in the hands of very badly run semi government institutions who are arguably quite bad at even utilizing the tunnels they have. E.g. the new york subway system is famously less efficient than ever due to the fact that they keep reducing the speed at which trains travel through it. Digging new tunnels is relatively rare for them; and when they do dig new tunnels, they tend to just use them exactly the same way as their existing tunnels, which is not very efficiently. Also, like most government infrastructure projects, progress is slow and things tend to go way over budget. Musk's approach is twofold: 1) turn tunnel digging into a scaleable business. 2) provide concrete things to do with these tunnels that are not backwards and stupid that he can sell. For example, if you have autonomous vehicles, you don't need a lot of expensive infrastructure inside the tunnels to get from A to B. Infrastructure like rails, signaling equipment, power lines for the trains, etc. It so happens he has a business for autonomous vehicles already. He sells the whole package. That's why he's emphasizing the use cases. This is classic Musk, he thinks end to end an he might actually pull it off.
- Luc 8y ago
  You're comparing a difficult but real situation with a perfect but hypothetical one. Things always are wonderful when they're research projects that don't need to conform to real-world limitations.
  - TheAceOfHearts 8y ago
    New York subway system is probably the best we have in the US, but it's laughably bad when compared to the top players. I've traveled to Japan and during my trips I've been amazed by their train system. It was always on time and it ran incredibly frequently, so missing a train usually wasn't a big deal. Although I haven't visited there, I've also heard incredibly positive things about China's trains. My point here is that there's still a lot of room for improvement, even if you limit yourself to trains. It doesn't seem like such a stretch to extend it a bit further to this new emerging system.
baldfat 8y ago
Montreal and Mexico City also has rubber tire subways. I always found them to be nice since they really are more quiet. Though the jumpy aspects of the tires is unnerving for me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-tyred_metro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-tyred_metro

ztjio 8y ago

During the presentation, Musk specifically compared to subways and how their vision is an improvement. I didn't and won't read the article, since I watched the presentation, but, if it doesn't even mention that fact, this article is a waste of time. The presentation was quite informative of their ideas and visions for using the tunnels and gave clear explanations of how their approach is superior to existing ones.

ohhhwell 8y ago

The problem with subway systems is that they are great once they have enough reach and stops to reliably and frequently get you were you need to go without needing a car. However, a small subway system with infrequent service and only a few stops isn't all that useful. If we take the claims here at face value (not saying we should) then this is a solution that provides value immediately for people commuting by car, and if the network becomes widespread enough it becomes easier to rely on it as a pedestrian. Essentially it might be a great way to bootstrap a transition to public transport in car-centric systems. Also note that if you get an increased amount of people commuting in these tunnels without their own cars, new public transportation built by the city becomes a lot more valuable as well, since there's already a lot of people getting around without cars. That said it is funny how private companies seem to rediscover public transport. Looking forward to Uber Train.

xauronx 8y ago
Uber buying a major cities metro system and making it not shitty would be pretty great. NYC subway is basically what taxis used to be, dirty and hostile toward the user.
- ForHackernews 8y ago
  Since it seems VCs want to throw billions of dollars into a pit and set it on fire, I guess I'd prefer that pit were the NYC subway system rather than jitney cabs.

ForHackernews 8y ago

Yes, it seems like they're re-inventing subways (except with lower capacity), similar to how Lyft re-discovered the bus: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/06/lyft-reinvents-the-bus.html http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/06/lyft-reinvents-the-bu...

hopler 8y ago
Lyft shuttles are better buses. Better times, flexible routing, less road damage, and more comfortable rides. And they relieve pressure off the municipal system. It's a win-win, except for people who blame Lyft for public transit's flaws.

jillesvangurp 8y ago

Tunneling is currently so expensive that there are few companies doing any innovation on how to properly utilize them. A big part of the problem is actually digging them in a way that is cheap and scaleable. Another part of the problem is the organizations doing the digging and doing the exploitation are typically have misaligned incentives and goals. For example, expanding subway systems is currently in the hands of very badly run semi government institutions who are arguably quite bad at even utilizing the tunnels they have. E.g. the new york subway system is famously less efficient than ever due to the fact that they keep reducing the speed at which trains travel through it. Digging new tunnels is relatively rare for them; and when they do dig new tunnels, they tend to just use them exactly the same way as their existing tunnels, which is not very efficiently. Also, like most government infrastructure projects, progress is slow and things tend to go way over budget. Musk's approach is twofold: 1) turn tunnel digging into a scaleable business. 2) provide concrete things to do with these tunnels that are not backwards and stupid that he can sell. For example, if you have autonomous vehicles, you don't need a lot of expensive infrastructure inside the tunnels to get from A to B. Infrastructure like rails, signaling equipment, power lines for the trains, etc. It so happens he has a business for autonomous vehicles already. He sells the whole package. That's why he's emphasizing the use cases. This is classic Musk, he thinks end to end an he might actually pull it off.

Luc 8y ago
You're comparing a difficult but real situation with a perfect but hypothetical one. Things always are wonderful when they're research projects that don't need to conform to real-world limitations.
- TheAceOfHearts 8y ago
  New York subway system is probably the best we have in the US, but it's laughably bad when compared to the top players. I've traveled to Japan and during my trips I've been amazed by their train system. It was always on time and it ran incredibly frequently, so missing a train usually wasn't a big deal. Although I haven't visited there, I've also heard incredibly positive things about China's trains. My point here is that there's still a lot of room for improvement, even if you limit yourself to trains. It doesn't seem like such a stretch to extend it a bit further to this new emerging system.

baldfat 8y ago

Montreal and Mexico City also has rubber tire subways. I always found them to be nice since they really are more quiet. Though the jumpy aspects of the tires is unnerving for me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-tyred_metro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-tyred_metro