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I still think consumers need to take responsibility for what we buy. I can complain that someone else isn’t fixing our problems, but then I go to the store and

I still think consumers need to take responsibility for what we buy. I can complain that someone else isn’t fixing our problems, but then I go to the store and I buy detergent that comes in a plastic tub. Why can’t they dispense detergent in to a reusable container? Why do I buy all this plastic crap? Can we form a collective that researches options and bulk buys products in a low waste manner?

deogeo 8y ago
Consumers aren't just consumers - they're also voters, and can take responsibility by voting/demanding better environmental regulation. Great change is rarely brought about with merely individual action.
- TaylorAlexander 8y ago
  > Great change is rarely brought about with merely individual action. Hmm... I specifically mentioned collective action. But I think there’s more we can do than vote. We can work to reduce our impact, tell everyone how we did it, and then form collectives that embody our goals. I prefer the notion of supporting companies that care rather than forcing companies that don’t care to act like they do. Perhaps it’s good to force bad actors to comply to some minimum level, but voluntary action can go much farther. For example we’re unlikely to solve the climate impacts of meat consumption with the law - because we probably can’t ban meat consumption - but voluntary veganism makes a big impact over time.
- Reedx 8y ago
  They're also voting with their wallet with every purchase. Not buying plastic crap that gets thrown out after one use would help.
  - deogeo 8y ago
    Companies would love nothing more than to convince consumers that's all they should do. But it wasn't voting with wallets that got us food and electrical safety standards, the 40 hour work week, or banned leaded gasoline. And markets carry no detergents in reusable containers you could 'vote' for in this manner.
- ced 8y ago
  Great change rarely comes without at least some individual action, that brings the possibility of great change into the collective consciousness.
- yesenadam 8y ago
  Great change is rarely brought about with merely individual action. Is that actually true? Although I guess 'great', 'rarely', and what counts as individual action or not are so vague as to make that impossible to test. ...It just makes me feel I need do nothing. But I don't like that word 'merely', begging the question there.
- gHosts 8y ago
  You have three votes.... * Your democratic vote (local / and national) * Where you spend your money. * Where you spend your time. You cannot refrain from voting and all votes are counted. Vote wisely.
claudiawerner 8y ago
While I agree that personal (and collective) responsibility is important, does it do much to address the systemic issues which drive industry-standard use of these products? Let's say that we succeed in convincing companies to use less plastic - would it follow that a plethora of other horrible industry practices follow suit? Isn't it also true that against such a big "target", global capital, even large scale collective action only very rarely results in genuine and lasting change? My liberal side says this: we should petition governments (despite the fact that not a single petition to the UK parliament has been successful?) to act on such pressing issues by imposing penalties for use of substances known to be ecologically harmful. Granted, collective action and personal responsibility is still needed, but it's easier to pressure your government than it is global capital, since the leverage of a government is more than the sum of its "parts" (the people).
pessimizer 8y ago
> Why can’t they dispense detergent in to a reusable container? Branding. You have no control because literally the only reason that that stuff is used is to trick and manipulate you. This sort of packaging then becomes necessary under capitalism, because any company breaking from the consensus immediately loses any distinction as a brand that would allow consumers to reward them. I think the only hope in future is with businesses like Aldi, who hearken back to a time when you chose your grocery store based on the quality of their products, rather than choosing it because they carry a particular brand. If stores start debranding products as they come in, and selling based on the store's own brand reputation of good quality at a good price i.e. become editorial (rather than the bizarre current platform model where brands bribe the store for better placement), there's nothing stopping them from selling detergent in bulk, next to the reusable containers to carry it home in.
- TaylorAlexander 8y ago
  Thank you for this comment and the analysis. This really resonates with me. I think a lot of people look at capitalism as “two people agree to an exchange”, but it goes so much farther than that. Brands matter, which I think is always true, but the importance of branding has become so inflated that we have decided to needlessly manufacture and discard plastic containers en masse just to keep that branding going. And why? My shampoo bottle says “strong hair for a strong woman” or something. What the fuck? Marketers have to manufacture fantasies that have nothing to do with their products and we all live with that like its normal. Brands do matter. A company that cares about its workers needs some way to be recognized so that consumers can support them, etc. but somehow we’ve taken branding to such an extreme that we will throw away mountains of single use plastic just to keep that train rolling. We’ve got to find a better way.
threatofrain 8y ago
IMO anyone in the chain that can take responsibility needs to start doing so, and the consumer is at the very end of it.
- TaylorAlexander 8y ago
  I agree with this. However lately I’ve felt as if consumerism is so effective that people forget entirely about consumer responsibility in the chain. Businesses absolutely will die without customers. Consumer choice is a HUGE lever we can pull if we agree to do it. I’ve seen how deadlocked our legal system has become, and how narrow the cares of our politicians, and I scream inside when someone says we need to vote to solve the problem. Voting is a formal way of specifying who you think could help in your name. But it can’t just be one person with 3 million other constituents who is looking after your concerns. We’ve got to do it ourselves too. I’ve only just begun to face this fact myself.
DougN7 8y ago
It feels to me like we are seeing that with organic food, which used to be rare and hard to find, but now you can find some of it at Walmart. Maybe see how that niche did it and copy it? I’m sure this is a decade(s) long issue to work on.

deogeo 8y ago

Consumers aren't just consumers - they're also voters, and can take responsibility by voting/demanding better environmental regulation. Great change is rarely brought about with merely individual action.

TaylorAlexander 8y ago
> Great change is rarely brought about with merely individual action. Hmm... I specifically mentioned collective action. But I think there’s more we can do than vote. We can work to reduce our impact, tell everyone how we did it, and then form collectives that embody our goals. I prefer the notion of supporting companies that care rather than forcing companies that don’t care to act like they do. Perhaps it’s good to force bad actors to comply to some minimum level, but voluntary action can go much farther. For example we’re unlikely to solve the climate impacts of meat consumption with the law - because we probably can’t ban meat consumption - but voluntary veganism makes a big impact over time.
Reedx 8y ago
They're also voting with their wallet with every purchase. Not buying plastic crap that gets thrown out after one use would help.
- deogeo 8y ago
  Companies would love nothing more than to convince consumers that's all they should do. But it wasn't voting with wallets that got us food and electrical safety standards, the 40 hour work week, or banned leaded gasoline. And markets carry no detergents in reusable containers you could 'vote' for in this manner.
ced 8y ago
Great change rarely comes without at least some individual action, that brings the possibility of great change into the collective consciousness.
yesenadam 8y ago
Great change is rarely brought about with merely individual action. Is that actually true? Although I guess 'great', 'rarely', and what counts as individual action or not are so vague as to make that impossible to test. ...It just makes me feel I need do nothing. But I don't like that word 'merely', begging the question there.
gHosts 8y ago
You have three votes.... * Your democratic vote (local / and national) * Where you spend your money. * Where you spend your time. You cannot refrain from voting and all votes are counted. Vote wisely.

claudiawerner 8y ago

While I agree that personal (and collective) responsibility is important, does it do much to address the systemic issues which drive industry-standard use of these products? Let's say that we succeed in convincing companies to use less plastic - would it follow that a plethora of other horrible industry practices follow suit? Isn't it also true that against such a big "target", global capital, even large scale collective action only very rarely results in genuine and lasting change? My liberal side says this: we should petition governments (despite the fact that not a single petition to the UK parliament has been successful?) to act on such pressing issues by imposing penalties for use of substances known to be ecologically harmful. Granted, collective action and personal responsibility is still needed, but it's easier to pressure your government than it is global capital, since the leverage of a government is more than the sum of its "parts" (the people).

pessimizer 8y ago

> Why can’t they dispense detergent in to a reusable container? Branding. You have no control because literally the only reason that that stuff is used is to trick and manipulate you. This sort of packaging then becomes necessary under capitalism, because any company breaking from the consensus immediately loses any distinction as a brand that would allow consumers to reward them. I think the only hope in future is with businesses like Aldi, who hearken back to a time when you chose your grocery store based on the quality of their products, rather than choosing it because they carry a particular brand. If stores start debranding products as they come in, and selling based on the store's own brand reputation of good quality at a good price i.e. become editorial (rather than the bizarre current platform model where brands bribe the store for better placement), there's nothing stopping them from selling detergent in bulk, next to the reusable containers to carry it home in.

TaylorAlexander 8y ago
Thank you for this comment and the analysis. This really resonates with me. I think a lot of people look at capitalism as “two people agree to an exchange”, but it goes so much farther than that. Brands matter, which I think is always true, but the importance of branding has become so inflated that we have decided to needlessly manufacture and discard plastic containers en masse just to keep that branding going. And why? My shampoo bottle says “strong hair for a strong woman” or something. What the fuck? Marketers have to manufacture fantasies that have nothing to do with their products and we all live with that like its normal. Brands do matter. A company that cares about its workers needs some way to be recognized so that consumers can support them, etc. but somehow we’ve taken branding to such an extreme that we will throw away mountains of single use plastic just to keep that train rolling. We’ve got to find a better way.

threatofrain 8y ago

IMO anyone in the chain that can take responsibility needs to start doing so, and the consumer is at the very end of it.

TaylorAlexander 8y ago
I agree with this. However lately I’ve felt as if consumerism is so effective that people forget entirely about consumer responsibility in the chain. Businesses absolutely will die without customers. Consumer choice is a HUGE lever we can pull if we agree to do it. I’ve seen how deadlocked our legal system has become, and how narrow the cares of our politicians, and I scream inside when someone says we need to vote to solve the problem. Voting is a formal way of specifying who you think could help in your name. But it can’t just be one person with 3 million other constituents who is looking after your concerns. We’ve got to do it ourselves too. I’ve only just begun to face this fact myself.

DougN7 8y ago

It feels to me like we are seeing that with organic food, which used to be rare and hard to find, but now you can find some of it at Walmart. Maybe see how that niche did it and copy it? I’m sure this is a decade(s) long issue to work on.