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This interview[1] sounds like they called bottom at 6k and then the floor fell out: "We thought it was a bear market. I went into it thinking in the long run cr

by bhaak 8y ago

This interview[1] sounds like they called bottom at 6k and then the floor fell out: "We thought it was a bear market. I went into it thinking in the long run crypto is going to be a real structural shift in the world and I can just hedge my portfolio. And to be fair, we did a really great job not losing money the first 60 percent down. What you forget is that a market like Bitcoin that’s down 84 percent has dropped 60 percent—and then another 60 percent. That’s where the pain happens. You start buying Ether again, because it’s only $400 after being at $1,300. But then it drops to $100, and you’ve lost 75 percent of your money. We haven’t done horribly in that context, but we’re still down. [...] I did think Bitcoin was going to hold at $6,200. It stayed there for four months. It felt like the selling was finished." [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-11/mike-novogratz-explains-why-he-s-still-all-in-on-cryptocurrency https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-11/mike-novo...

deleted 8y ago
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wpietri 8y ago
"Felt like". That's beautiful. The dude had a feel and lost the equivalent of 2300 years of labor (at the US median income). There's this bit in Taleb's first book, "Fooled by Randomness". This was before he made a shit-ton of money. He pointed out that a lot of the nominally successful traders he worked around would declare a strategy, make a few bets, make a lot of money, and then act like geniuses for thinking up the strategy. However, they'd never really examine the obvious alternate hypothesis: they got lucky. I used to work for a proprietary trading firm. We'd get new traders by taking very confident, driven people (e.g., former Olympic athletes), making them be clerks for a while, and then turning them loose in the pits. The CFO kept a very close eye on them early on because their natural confidence combined with early successes lead them to believe they were gods. It wasn't until they got really hammered by a bad bet or two that she'd begin to trust them. It reminds me of a favorite line: "Every corpse on Mount Everest was once a highly motivated person with a can do-attitude."
- _hardwaregeek 8y ago
  Honestly the schadenfreude is real. What part of the crypto graph made him believe he could make assumptions about, well, anything?
  - oblib 8y ago
    I hate to admit I agree, but I have to be honest too. That is spot on.
mortenjorck 8y ago
I was pretty sure $6-7k was the floor for BTC, and it’s interesting to see a high-profile fund manager made effectively the same, expensive mistake. The biggest surprise for me, though, was ETH, which given its better fundamentals, I had thought would be where the market went after Bitcoin popped – and yet, it was not only dragged down, but crushed even harder than BTC.
- elhudy 8y ago
  What "fundamentals" exist for Eth that allow it to be valued at a specific price point? Eth has no earnings, no assets, and no liabilities. Its intrinsic value is close to 0. It could be totally wiped off the planet tommorow and almost nobody besides crypto traders would care. Crypto trading should be based on technical analysis not "fundamentals".
  - nostrademons 8y ago
    Adoption and projects using it. Like any currency, ETH becomes more valuable when you can spend it on more things. It's the base currency for a whole infrastructure of distributed trust & settlement; if useful economic activity occurs on top of that infrastructure, ETH gains in value proportionally.
    - elhudy 8y ago
      Ok, but the whole idea behind fundamental analysis is that you generate a specific value of worth based on your analysis. So what formula are you using to calculate a price point for Eth based on "adoption and projects using it"? Are you tracking all projects using it, and assigning it a dollar value based on a per project usage and cross-checking that against the number of ways you can use it? Or are you just guessing? Because if you're just guessing, that's not a fundamental analysis.
      - nostrademons 8y ago
        I actually am, to most of those points. I'm indexing every forum & blog on the web, then cross-referencing it with a big long list of crypto projects, then using that to infer which projects have an active, involved, growing community and which are scams or dead. Sentiment, activity, and viral mentions aren't a perfect proxy for adoption, but it's pretty close, and a lot more robust data source than technical analysis or previous prices, which by their nature will always be a lagging indicator. Still in closed beta with a very limited set of testers - I've been working on a lot of the kinks in the data acquisition, which as you could imagine is a little tricky. If you want to get on the wait list, signup is here: http://www.cryptolazza.com/ http://www.cryptolazza.com/
JohnJamesRambo 8y ago
6k was the bottom and then a black swan event happened, at the worst possible time, when Bitcoin Cash forked again and the owners of the two forks had to childishly sell tons of bitcoin to fund their hashpower war. I don't think that was a predictable event.
- airstrike 8y ago
  And which event is really predictable in the world of speculating?

by bhaak 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

wpietri 8y ago

"Felt like". That's beautiful. The dude had a feel and lost the equivalent of 2300 years of labor (at the US median income). There's this bit in Taleb's first book, "Fooled by Randomness". This was before he made a shit-ton of money. He pointed out that a lot of the nominally successful traders he worked around would declare a strategy, make a few bets, make a lot of money, and then act like geniuses for thinking up the strategy. However, they'd never really examine the obvious alternate hypothesis: they got lucky. I used to work for a proprietary trading firm. We'd get new traders by taking very confident, driven people (e.g., former Olympic athletes), making them be clerks for a while, and then turning them loose in the pits. The CFO kept a very close eye on them early on because their natural confidence combined with early successes lead them to believe they were gods. It wasn't until they got really hammered by a bad bet or two that she'd begin to trust them. It reminds me of a favorite line: "Every corpse on Mount Everest was once a highly motivated person with a can do-attitude."

_hardwaregeek 8y ago
Honestly the schadenfreude is real. What part of the crypto graph made him believe he could make assumptions about, well, anything?
- oblib 8y ago
  I hate to admit I agree, but I have to be honest too. That is spot on.

mortenjorck 8y ago

I was pretty sure $6-7k was the floor for BTC, and it’s interesting to see a high-profile fund manager made effectively the same, expensive mistake. The biggest surprise for me, though, was ETH, which given its better fundamentals, I had thought would be where the market went after Bitcoin popped – and yet, it was not only dragged down, but crushed even harder than BTC.

elhudy 8y ago
What "fundamentals" exist for Eth that allow it to be valued at a specific price point? Eth has no earnings, no assets, and no liabilities. Its intrinsic value is close to 0. It could be totally wiped off the planet tommorow and almost nobody besides crypto traders would care. Crypto trading should be based on technical analysis not "fundamentals".
- nostrademons 8y ago
  Adoption and projects using it. Like any currency, ETH becomes more valuable when you can spend it on more things. It's the base currency for a whole infrastructure of distributed trust & settlement; if useful economic activity occurs on top of that infrastructure, ETH gains in value proportionally.
  - elhudy 8y ago
    Ok, but the whole idea behind fundamental analysis is that you generate a specific value of worth based on your analysis. So what formula are you using to calculate a price point for Eth based on "adoption and projects using it"? Are you tracking all projects using it, and assigning it a dollar value based on a per project usage and cross-checking that against the number of ways you can use it? Or are you just guessing? Because if you're just guessing, that's not a fundamental analysis.
    - nostrademons 8y ago
      I actually am, to most of those points. I'm indexing every forum & blog on the web, then cross-referencing it with a big long list of crypto projects, then using that to infer which projects have an active, involved, growing community and which are scams or dead. Sentiment, activity, and viral mentions aren't a perfect proxy for adoption, but it's pretty close, and a lot more robust data source than technical analysis or previous prices, which by their nature will always be a lagging indicator. Still in closed beta with a very limited set of testers - I've been working on a lot of the kinks in the data acquisition, which as you could imagine is a little tricky. If you want to get on the wait list, signup is here: http://www.cryptolazza.com/ http://www.cryptolazza.com/

JohnJamesRambo 8y ago

6k was the bottom and then a black swan event happened, at the worst possible time, when Bitcoin Cash forked again and the owners of the two forks had to childishly sell tons of bitcoin to fund their hashpower war. I don't think that was a predictable event.

airstrike 8y ago
And which event is really predictable in the world of speculating?