5 ms·

So what stops this new site from getting extremist? Looking at a similar story of voat here, which quickly became very rightwing and unwelcome to tame ideologi

So what stops this new site from getting extremist? Looking at a similar story of voat here, which quickly became very rightwing and unwelcome to tame ideologies

Cthulhu_ 8y ago
Who says this site intends to NOT get extremist? Providing a platform for freedom of speech as an ultimate goal will end up with extremism, which chases the less extremist people away - which is why e.g. Reddit started to crack down on the fringes a while ago, to increase their mass appeal and not piss off potential advertisers. If you run a platform where your members pay you a percentage though, you're not beholden to advertisers. You'd be beholden to law enforcement though.
- TorKlingberg 8y ago
  Hopefully you are also beholden to your own moral compass. There's a risk this new site turns into "Let's collect money to harass people we don't like."
- thecatspaw 8y ago
  Sure, maybe they intend that. But that puts them pretty much immediatly in the dark web. Tor server because no hoster wants a crowdfunding page for extremists. Bitcoin because no way credit card companies are gonna partner with you Thats gonna cause a non-negligible drop of users and revenue
- cm2187 8y ago
  Well, they will likely run into problems with payment processors. My guess is that the only way they can achieve this is by still filtering for unwanted content (porn, extremists) but trying to not do what Patreon did, which is to call extremist people who really aren't just because they don't share their political opinion.
  - wetpaws 8y ago
    Looks like they need their own payment processing as well :)
- raarts 8y ago
  > Who says this site intends to NOT get extremist? Considering the people who are behind it, that is very unlikely [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWz1RDVoqw4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWz1RDVoqw4
  - cm2187 8y ago
    I agree on the intention but I don't think it is meant to be a platform just for themselves. Where will they draw the line for free speech is not an easy question. If you are absolute about free speech, you end up concentrating all the rejects from the other platforms and this may very well end up becoming an extremist hot bed.
    - imustbeevil 8y ago
      They aren't absolute about free speech. These are not Gab/Voat people, these are Moderates. They still believe hate speech and inciting violence should not be tolerated, they just use the US Government's definition for the first amendment instead of Patreon's.
all2 8y ago
This is a phenomenal question. My gut tells me it has something to do with sequestered/topic-specific forums or boards. That linked with a karma system and ideologies have an environment that is almost cancerous. High-karma posts and topics help to deter or teach new comers. They also serve to create a narrative and local extrema that begins to differ from more broadly held views. Next, consider that a sequestered board also limits (even eliminates) any empathy a user may have had. No one thinks differently from them, no one has a differing opinion. HN is in stark contrast to these other systems. The entire site may be self-contained, but there is no place for users to hide (in PMs, in sub-boards, etc.). If we want to be here (which I think we do) we have to deal with each other, listen to differing opinions, have real conversations. There is a karma system, and I'm not quite sure how it fits in... \edit - stray characters
- Rumperuu 8y ago
  I'm a latecomer to HN and I remember wondering at first how such a 'basic' site could possibly be so popular. After a while, it was clear that something was really very right about the design of the thing, but I hadn't ever bothered to put into words just what that was. Now I don't have to.
zozbot123 8y ago
They are focusing on intellectual content here, and the obvious way is to do it by invitation - if you are an Intellectual Dark Web (IDW) personality, acknowledged as such by existing members you'll get to play, otherwise you won't. This is quite different from how Voat, 4chan etc. work. At the end of the day, all worthwhile Internet spaces rely on moderation of some sort, and even HN is no exception.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
sparkie 8y ago
What stops Patreon et al from becoming extremist? (On the left) IMO, it has already happened. The far-left have already crossed lines that are tremendously damaging for society, while at the same time they point the finger at countries like China for engaging in the same kinds of actions they themselves are engaged in. Free-speech is not just some alt-right or far-right conspiracy to oppress people. It's a fundamental value that our societies are built on. The idea of free-speech means that some people will say some extreme things, and free-speech is what enables you to point out their extremism so that people can be better informed. Big tech has become extremist in its calculated attempts to deplatform (unperson) people. The people calling out this extremism sometimes have the undesirable effect that they catch the association of reactionaries on the opposite side (the far right). The people on the IDW have consistently made cases against extremism on the right, and in many ways, they are the limiting the extent of a potential radical right backlash that would otherwise come as a result of crackdowns on liberties from the left.
- thecatspaw 8y ago
  > What stops Patreon et al from becoming extremist? (On the left) Enough people leaving if they do not agree with Patreons views > IMO, it has already happened. The far-left have already crossed lines that are tremendously damaging for society, while at the same time they point the finger at countries like China for engaging in the same kinds of actions they themselves are engaged in. Right. We also need to look at ourselves in terms of surveilance and social score systems, which no doubt also exist in some form in european countries and the US. > Free-speech is not just some alt-right or far-right conspiracy to oppress people. It's a fundamental value that our societies are built on. The idea of free-speech means that some people will say some extreme things, and free-speech is what enables you to point out their extremism so that people can be better informed. Agreed. Free speech is important. Everybody should be able to say what they want, or stay quiet if they choose. However, this does not mean that I have to let my racist neighbour hold a talk in my living room.
  - sparkie 8y ago
    > However, this does not mean that I have to let my racist neighbour hold a talk in my living room. The actions of the left are more akin to investigating which bank your neighbour uses, then going to that bank and asking them to close his account down or you will cause a scene.

So what stops this new site from getting extremist? Looking at a similar story of voat here, which quickly became very rightwing and unwelcome to tame ideologies

Cthulhu_ 8y ago

Who says this site intends to NOT get extremist? Providing a platform for freedom of speech as an ultimate goal will end up with extremism, which chases the less extremist people away - which is why e.g. Reddit started to crack down on the fringes a while ago, to increase their mass appeal and not piss off potential advertisers. If you run a platform where your members pay you a percentage though, you're not beholden to advertisers. You'd be beholden to law enforcement though.

TorKlingberg 8y ago
Hopefully you are also beholden to your own moral compass. There's a risk this new site turns into "Let's collect money to harass people we don't like."
thecatspaw 8y ago
Sure, maybe they intend that. But that puts them pretty much immediatly in the dark web. Tor server because no hoster wants a crowdfunding page for extremists. Bitcoin because no way credit card companies are gonna partner with you Thats gonna cause a non-negligible drop of users and revenue
cm2187 8y ago
Well, they will likely run into problems with payment processors. My guess is that the only way they can achieve this is by still filtering for unwanted content (porn, extremists) but trying to not do what Patreon did, which is to call extremist people who really aren't just because they don't share their political opinion.
- wetpaws 8y ago
  Looks like they need their own payment processing as well :)
raarts 8y ago
> Who says this site intends to NOT get extremist? Considering the people who are behind it, that is very unlikely [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWz1RDVoqw4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWz1RDVoqw4
- cm2187 8y ago
  I agree on the intention but I don't think it is meant to be a platform just for themselves. Where will they draw the line for free speech is not an easy question. If you are absolute about free speech, you end up concentrating all the rejects from the other platforms and this may very well end up becoming an extremist hot bed.
  - imustbeevil 8y ago
    They aren't absolute about free speech. These are not Gab/Voat people, these are Moderates. They still believe hate speech and inciting violence should not be tolerated, they just use the US Government's definition for the first amendment instead of Patreon's.

all2 8y ago

This is a phenomenal question. My gut tells me it has something to do with sequestered/topic-specific forums or boards. That linked with a karma system and ideologies have an environment that is almost cancerous. High-karma posts and topics help to deter or teach new comers. They also serve to create a narrative and local extrema that begins to differ from more broadly held views. Next, consider that a sequestered board also limits (even eliminates) any empathy a user may have had. No one thinks differently from them, no one has a differing opinion. HN is in stark contrast to these other systems. The entire site may be self-contained, but there is no place for users to hide (in PMs, in sub-boards, etc.). If we want to be here (which I think we do) we have to deal with each other, listen to differing opinions, have real conversations. There is a karma system, and I'm not quite sure how it fits in... \edit - stray characters

Rumperuu 8y ago
I'm a latecomer to HN and I remember wondering at first how such a 'basic' site could possibly be so popular. After a while, it was clear that something was really very right about the design of the thing, but I hadn't ever bothered to put into words just what that was. Now I don't have to.

zozbot123 8y ago

They are focusing on intellectual content here, and the obvious way is to do it by invitation - if you are an Intellectual Dark Web (IDW) personality, acknowledged as such by existing members you'll get to play, otherwise you won't. This is quite different from how Voat, 4chan etc. work. At the end of the day, all worthwhile Internet spaces rely on moderation of some sort, and even HN is no exception.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

sparkie 8y ago

What stops Patreon et al from becoming extremist? (On the left) IMO, it has already happened. The far-left have already crossed lines that are tremendously damaging for society, while at the same time they point the finger at countries like China for engaging in the same kinds of actions they themselves are engaged in. Free-speech is not just some alt-right or far-right conspiracy to oppress people. It's a fundamental value that our societies are built on. The idea of free-speech means that some people will say some extreme things, and free-speech is what enables you to point out their extremism so that people can be better informed. Big tech has become extremist in its calculated attempts to deplatform (unperson) people. The people calling out this extremism sometimes have the undesirable effect that they catch the association of reactionaries on the opposite side (the far right). The people on the IDW have consistently made cases against extremism on the right, and in many ways, they are the limiting the extent of a potential radical right backlash that would otherwise come as a result of crackdowns on liberties from the left.

thecatspaw 8y ago
> What stops Patreon et al from becoming extremist? (On the left) Enough people leaving if they do not agree with Patreons views > IMO, it has already happened. The far-left have already crossed lines that are tremendously damaging for society, while at the same time they point the finger at countries like China for engaging in the same kinds of actions they themselves are engaged in. Right. We also need to look at ourselves in terms of surveilance and social score systems, which no doubt also exist in some form in european countries and the US. > Free-speech is not just some alt-right or far-right conspiracy to oppress people. It's a fundamental value that our societies are built on. The idea of free-speech means that some people will say some extreme things, and free-speech is what enables you to point out their extremism so that people can be better informed. Agreed. Free speech is important. Everybody should be able to say what they want, or stay quiet if they choose. However, this does not mean that I have to let my racist neighbour hold a talk in my living room.
- sparkie 8y ago
  > However, this does not mean that I have to let my racist neighbour hold a talk in my living room. The actions of the left are more akin to investigating which bank your neighbour uses, then going to that bank and asking them to close his account down or you will cause a scene.