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If you revel in the joy of learning "useless things," that's fine. Just realize you are wealthy in time, energy and cognitive power being able to do that. Peop

by abnry 8y ago

If you revel in the joy of learning "useless things," that's fine. Just realize you are wealthy in time, energy and cognitive power being able to do that. People learning "useless things" are often found in between pride and defensiveness. Wealth & ability can impress people. But dedicating so much time for yourself is sort of selfish. The problem is that learning "useless things," which is rooted in a form play, turns into something more--that is a self-centered approach of securing yourself in a social hierarchy.

jermaustin1 8y ago
This is a bit dismissive of anything that considered valuable RIGHT NOW. Gone are the humanities, the social sciences, the histories, the ancient linguistics, all of which depending on who you are could consider to be play around, while the rest of us serious people work for a living building software.
- abnry 8y ago
  I left a math PhD program due to health reasons. Looking back, none of my reasons for studying math was for the potential usefulness of the ideas I was studying. It was all for social status and personal play reasons. Investing in ideas that may pay off in the future is an excellent idea. But except for the cream of the crop, few people will actually have their useless knowledge turn into something useful. I suspect many people push this point about potential returns because they want to "get paid to play" as well as participate in a system that allows them to gain social status. If they convince others to support them using some argument about useless knowledge being useful, then they can continue in this way. My only point is that I wish more people were open about that. Yes, research pays off, but if you are in a position of being able to learn lots of "useless knowledge," you are already doing well in terms of health, intellect and status. Don't bemoan too much about your life.
kkylin 8y ago
I'm an academic, actually an applied mathematician. I agree with much of your sentiment -- it is absolutely a privilege, to the extent of being self-indulgent, to be able to spend time thinking about the things I want to. It is in some ways a rather selfish thing to do. Can I take a job that pays more? Absolutely. Would my family benefit from that? Maybe. But I'm fortunate to be paid enough for what I do. And I do hope whatever work I do -- research, teaching, even admin -- leaves the world a little richer in some ways, regardless of whether it's "useful." (Tangentially, whether a particular piece of knowledge is eventually found to be "useful" or not doesn't seem to have much to do with the intention or motivation of the person pursuing it. Also, I don't know there's much social status that comes from being an academic mathematician these days: other than 1 or 2 of my elderly neighbors, no one seems to think it's a big deal, least of all my students and other academics.)
yters 8y ago
Yes, "useless" seems the wrong sort of term. Memorizing stats regarding my favorite videogame is pretty useless. But, certain sources of knowledge that do not directly translate to food and shelter turn out be greatly advance the human race, such as the presocratics positing an unchanging law governing reality which eventually led to modern science. What is actually meant is trying to understand useful phenomena at a higher abstract level, or asking significant questions, i.e. what is the largest number? that lead to deeper insights into reality.
scarecrowbob 8y ago
"The problem is that learning "useless things," which is rooted in a form play, turns into something more--that is a self-centered approach of securing yourself in a social hierarchy." Social signaling and play aren't the only thing that learning useless skills can turn into. When I started learning to program, it was useless because all I knew how to write were toy programs. But at some point I got good enough at writing toy programs that people could actually use my useful work. Right now, the fact that I've spent the last couple of months re-learning calculus is totally useless to my careers as a CRUD programmer, IT admin dude, or musician. But I started the MITx 6.002 class on electrical engineering, and that math learning has helped immensely with the first part of that course... In itself me knowing how to design electronics is useless. And I am profoundly grateful to be , as you correctly phrase it "wealthy in time, energy and cognitive power". I can learn just because I find it playful. But eventually I have some product ideas that I'd like to build (just for my own fun and enjoyment). And that doesn't sound useless at all. It sounds fun and interesting (which have some utility in themselves) and it could be monetarily profitable given the depth of my domain knowledge. Similarly, when I started learning to play upright bass, it was just useless play... I didn't play well enough to do anything with it. At this point, I've done it enough that it's useful to the musicians I gigged and recorded with in the last week. Similarly, I have a pretty good domain knowledge with IT skills, and at some point I want to turn my attention to the various methods of working with machine learning / statistics / AI / whatever. When I start to do that, it will be useless because I won't know enough to do anything other than play with it. But maybe eventually I will have enough facility to do some useful things with it... I am assuming that when I'm in my late 60s and 70s that will be a very useful skill to have for helping with political activism. So I somewhat agree with you. Without actually doing anything, all knowledge acquisition is useless. I have most of a PhD in English and I totally agree that there is a lot of social signaling that goes on in education. But the possibility of that use for education doesn't imply that social climbing and play are the only uses for "useless" knowledge.
- abnry 8y ago
  No disagreement here. It's just that what I originally wrote I feel is under emphasized.
coldtea 8y ago
First, you don't have to be wealthy in money to enjoy learning "useless things", part time or full time. In fact, if you enjoy them too much, you might need to forego wealth AND "securing yourself in a social hierarchy". I have lots of friends in the cultural sphere who enjoy "useless things" for the sake of it, and don't have inherited money or anything or the short. Some work casual blue collar jobs to support themselves -- and they'd still relish the "useless things" if they were unemployed and living of coupons (as they have done for some time). No some young 20-somethings either. I also don't understand what "realize you are wealthy in time, energy and cognitive power being able to do that". Is that supposed to be something people should feel privileged? Having "time, energy, and cognitive power"? You don't need any more of that to learn "useless things" than for any other endeavors. Not only because you can (and people do) opt for less money or even poverty to devote yourself to "useless things", but also because the average person can (and tons do) devote some of the 2+ hours people use on social media BS and TV every day for "useless things" (from poetry and philosophy to theoretical math)...

by abnry 8y ago

jermaustin1 8y ago

This is a bit dismissive of anything that considered valuable RIGHT NOW. Gone are the humanities, the social sciences, the histories, the ancient linguistics, all of which depending on who you are could consider to be play around, while the rest of us serious people work for a living building software.

abnry 8y ago
I left a math PhD program due to health reasons. Looking back, none of my reasons for studying math was for the potential usefulness of the ideas I was studying. It was all for social status and personal play reasons. Investing in ideas that may pay off in the future is an excellent idea. But except for the cream of the crop, few people will actually have their useless knowledge turn into something useful. I suspect many people push this point about potential returns because they want to "get paid to play" as well as participate in a system that allows them to gain social status. If they convince others to support them using some argument about useless knowledge being useful, then they can continue in this way. My only point is that I wish more people were open about that. Yes, research pays off, but if you are in a position of being able to learn lots of "useless knowledge," you are already doing well in terms of health, intellect and status. Don't bemoan too much about your life.

kkylin 8y ago

I'm an academic, actually an applied mathematician. I agree with much of your sentiment -- it is absolutely a privilege, to the extent of being self-indulgent, to be able to spend time thinking about the things I want to. It is in some ways a rather selfish thing to do. Can I take a job that pays more? Absolutely. Would my family benefit from that? Maybe. But I'm fortunate to be paid enough for what I do. And I do hope whatever work I do -- research, teaching, even admin -- leaves the world a little richer in some ways, regardless of whether it's "useful." (Tangentially, whether a particular piece of knowledge is eventually found to be "useful" or not doesn't seem to have much to do with the intention or motivation of the person pursuing it. Also, I don't know there's much social status that comes from being an academic mathematician these days: other than 1 or 2 of my elderly neighbors, no one seems to think it's a big deal, least of all my students and other academics.)

yters 8y ago

Yes, "useless" seems the wrong sort of term. Memorizing stats regarding my favorite videogame is pretty useless. But, certain sources of knowledge that do not directly translate to food and shelter turn out be greatly advance the human race, such as the presocratics positing an unchanging law governing reality which eventually led to modern science. What is actually meant is trying to understand useful phenomena at a higher abstract level, or asking significant questions, i.e. what is the largest number? that lead to deeper insights into reality.

scarecrowbob 8y ago

"The problem is that learning "useless things," which is rooted in a form play, turns into something more--that is a self-centered approach of securing yourself in a social hierarchy." Social signaling and play aren't the only thing that learning useless skills can turn into. When I started learning to program, it was useless because all I knew how to write were toy programs. But at some point I got good enough at writing toy programs that people could actually use my useful work. Right now, the fact that I've spent the last couple of months re-learning calculus is totally useless to my careers as a CRUD programmer, IT admin dude, or musician. But I started the MITx 6.002 class on electrical engineering, and that math learning has helped immensely with the first part of that course... In itself me knowing how to design electronics is useless. And I am profoundly grateful to be , as you correctly phrase it "wealthy in time, energy and cognitive power". I can learn just because I find it playful. But eventually I have some product ideas that I'd like to build (just for my own fun and enjoyment). And that doesn't sound useless at all. It sounds fun and interesting (which have some utility in themselves) and it could be monetarily profitable given the depth of my domain knowledge. Similarly, when I started learning to play upright bass, it was just useless play... I didn't play well enough to do anything with it. At this point, I've done it enough that it's useful to the musicians I gigged and recorded with in the last week. Similarly, I have a pretty good domain knowledge with IT skills, and at some point I want to turn my attention to the various methods of working with machine learning / statistics / AI / whatever. When I start to do that, it will be useless because I won't know enough to do anything other than play with it. But maybe eventually I will have enough facility to do some useful things with it... I am assuming that when I'm in my late 60s and 70s that will be a very useful skill to have for helping with political activism. So I somewhat agree with you. Without actually doing anything, all knowledge acquisition is useless. I have most of a PhD in English and I totally agree that there is a lot of social signaling that goes on in education. But the possibility of that use for education doesn't imply that social climbing and play are the only uses for "useless" knowledge.

abnry 8y ago
No disagreement here. It's just that what I originally wrote I feel is under emphasized.

coldtea 8y ago

First, you don't have to be wealthy in money to enjoy learning "useless things", part time or full time. In fact, if you enjoy them too much, you might need to forego wealth AND "securing yourself in a social hierarchy". I have lots of friends in the cultural sphere who enjoy "useless things" for the sake of it, and don't have inherited money or anything or the short. Some work casual blue collar jobs to support themselves -- and they'd still relish the "useless things" if they were unemployed and living of coupons (as they have done for some time). No some young 20-somethings either. I also don't understand what "realize you are wealthy in time, energy and cognitive power being able to do that". Is that supposed to be something people should feel privileged? Having "time, energy, and cognitive power"? You don't need any more of that to learn "useless things" than for any other endeavors. Not only because you can (and people do) opt for less money or even poverty to devote yourself to "useless things", but also because the average person can (and tons do) devote some of the 2+ hours people use on social media BS and TV every day for "useless things" (from poetry and philosophy to theoretical math)...