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I don't think the downvotes were warranted given that the comment introduced something worth discussing, but my thoughts might be in line with some of the downv

I don't think the downvotes were warranted given that the comment introduced something worth discussing, but my thoughts might be in line with some of the downvoters. Human rights are not objective truths. The entire concept is something we made up based on beliefs that we formed through the course of history and we formalized the ones that a bunch of us were able to agree upon. They are a figment of our imaginations that we buy into because they're useful tools for structuring a society that isn't absolute chaos. As a result, citing a list that the UN formalized as some sort of factual evidence is, to me, on par with citing religious texts to promote their corresponding belief systems as "correct". That's not to say the list doesn't have value, only that it's open to debate and represents beliefs rather than facts.

antidesitter 8y ago
You can claim that morality is a fiction, but that doesn’t make it so. It’s not the most common or most plausible view.
- longerthoughts 8y ago
  You can claim that it’s not the most common or most plausible view, but that doesn’t make it so. I would wager that most people have never bothered to ask the question because morality is useful either way. Even if your claim is true, most people also believed common myths like the earth being flat at one point, so that’s hardly a compelling argument. I’m not saying morality has no place, only that it’s not a physical reality and you can’t point to a list as definitive proof of what is and is not moral.
  - antidesitter 8y ago
    > You can claim that it’s not the most common or most plausible view, but that doesn’t make it so. You're right. But if it's a question of evidence, I can certainly provide it. The fact that most people in the world adhere to one of the major religions [1] [2], which have moral duties, a fortiori implies that your view isn't the most common. Even this is vastly under-counting, of course, since it excludes humanists and non-humanists who adhere to secular ethics. I think the uncommonness of your view is quite clear and it would be disingenuous to deny that. Second, your view isn't the most common even among professional philosophers whose raison d'etre is precisely to ask and analyze these questions. Specifically, your view is the most common neither among those who study meta-ethics nor among the general population [3]. > Even if your claim is true, most people also believed common myths like the earth being flat at one point, so that’s hardly a compelling argument. I didn't say its uncommonness makes it untrue. I said it's neither the most common (which may or may not warrant a higher burden of proof) nor the most plausible. [1] http://www.pewforum.org/2017/04/05/the-changing-global-religious-landscape/ http://www.pewforum.org/2017/04/05/the-changing-global-relig... [2] https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/... [3] https://philpapers.org/surveys/results.pl https://philpapers.org/surveys/results.pl
    - longerthoughts 8y ago
      Thank you for the survey results - these are genuinely fascinating. I acknowledge that you weren't arguing that my view is incorrect, only that it's not a given, and I was debating a point that you weren't making. I buy your argument and agree that most people, if asked, would probably give an answer more closely aligned with moral realism than not. What's the case for moral realism that makes it so compelling? On a separate note, I take issue with the suggestion that an individual identifying with a major religion qualifies as adherence to its principles. This is nitpicking and doesn't impact the larger point you're making, but I think it's an important distinction in general.
      - antidesitter 8y ago
        > I take issue with the suggestion that an individual identifying with a major religion qualifies as adherence to its principles. I agree that this an important distinction, but a person identifying with a major religion is a strong prima facie reason for thinking they're moral realists. Keep in mind that believing there are some moral facts is a much, much weaker position than believing all or even most moral claims of their religion are true. > What's the case for moral realism that makes it so compelling? My personal favorite are Moorean arguments of the form: (1) Torturing people for fun is morally wrong. (2) If there's at least one moral fact, then moral realism is true. (3) Therefore, moral realism is true. You can replace (1) with your favorite moral fact, such as (1) The Nanjing massacre [1] was morally wrong. (1) The torture and murder of Kelly Anne Bates [2] was morally wrong. (1) The torture and murder of Unit 731 victims [3] was morally wrong. and have the argument go through. The key point is that, as far as I know, there's no argument against moral realism whose premises are all more plausible than (1). Another class of arguments are so-called partners in crime arguments [4][5][6], which link moral reasoning with prudential and epistemic reasoning. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre#Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre#Massacre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kelly_Anne_Bates#Murder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kelly_Anne_Bates#Mur... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731#Activities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731#Activities [4] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00048400802636445 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/000484008026364... [5] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00048402.2016.1178313 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00048402.2016.1... [6] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00048402.2017.1386693 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00048402.2017.1...

antidesitter 8y ago

You can claim that morality is a fiction, but that doesn’t make it so. It’s not the most common or most plausible view.

longerthoughts 8y ago
You can claim that it’s not the most common or most plausible view, but that doesn’t make it so. I would wager that most people have never bothered to ask the question because morality is useful either way. Even if your claim is true, most people also believed common myths like the earth being flat at one point, so that’s hardly a compelling argument. I’m not saying morality has no place, only that it’s not a physical reality and you can’t point to a list as definitive proof of what is and is not moral.
- antidesitter 8y ago
  > You can claim that it’s not the most common or most plausible view, but that doesn’t make it so. You're right. But if it's a question of evidence, I can certainly provide it. The fact that most people in the world adhere to one of the major religions [1] [2], which have moral duties, a fortiori implies that your view isn't the most common. Even this is vastly under-counting, of course, since it excludes humanists and non-humanists who adhere to secular ethics. I think the uncommonness of your view is quite clear and it would be disingenuous to deny that. Second, your view isn't the most common even among professional philosophers whose raison d'etre is precisely to ask and analyze these questions. Specifically, your view is the most common neither among those who study meta-ethics nor among the general population [3]. > Even if your claim is true, most people also believed common myths like the earth being flat at one point, so that’s hardly a compelling argument. I didn't say its uncommonness makes it untrue. I said it's neither the most common (which may or may not warrant a higher burden of proof) nor the most plausible. [1] http://www.pewforum.org/2017/04/05/the-changing-global-religious-landscape/ http://www.pewforum.org/2017/04/05/the-changing-global-relig... [2] https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/... [3] https://philpapers.org/surveys/results.pl https://philpapers.org/surveys/results.pl
  - longerthoughts 8y ago
    Thank you for the survey results - these are genuinely fascinating. I acknowledge that you weren't arguing that my view is incorrect, only that it's not a given, and I was debating a point that you weren't making. I buy your argument and agree that most people, if asked, would probably give an answer more closely aligned with moral realism than not. What's the case for moral realism that makes it so compelling? On a separate note, I take issue with the suggestion that an individual identifying with a major religion qualifies as adherence to its principles. This is nitpicking and doesn't impact the larger point you're making, but I think it's an important distinction in general.
    - antidesitter 8y ago
      > I take issue with the suggestion that an individual identifying with a major religion qualifies as adherence to its principles. I agree that this an important distinction, but a person identifying with a major religion is a strong prima facie reason for thinking they're moral realists. Keep in mind that believing there are some moral facts is a much, much weaker position than believing all or even most moral claims of their religion are true. > What's the case for moral realism that makes it so compelling? My personal favorite are Moorean arguments of the form: (1) Torturing people for fun is morally wrong. (2) If there's at least one moral fact, then moral realism is true. (3) Therefore, moral realism is true. You can replace (1) with your favorite moral fact, such as (1) The Nanjing massacre [1] was morally wrong. (1) The torture and murder of Kelly Anne Bates [2] was morally wrong. (1) The torture and murder of Unit 731 victims [3] was morally wrong. and have the argument go through. The key point is that, as far as I know, there's no argument against moral realism whose premises are all more plausible than (1). Another class of arguments are so-called partners in crime arguments [4][5][6], which link moral reasoning with prudential and epistemic reasoning. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre#Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre#Massacre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kelly_Anne_Bates#Murder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kelly_Anne_Bates#Mur... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731#Activities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731#Activities [4] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00048400802636445 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/000484008026364... [5] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00048402.2016.1178313 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00048402.2016.1... [6] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00048402.2017.1386693 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00048402.2017.1...