5 ms·

Since you are one of the few people who support a re-entry of Google into China, can I ask a question? There is no doubt that a cultural gap exists between Chin

by QML 8y ago

Since you are one of the few people who support a re-entry of Google into China, can I ask a question? There is no doubt that a cultural gap exists between Chinese and Americans, and their perceptions of the current Chinese government. Should a foreign company like Google adopt the culture of the country they're entering, or maintain the culture of where they're headquartered? From what I've read, the main opposition is only coming from Americans... oddly enough.

ngcc_hk 8y ago
Come from Hong Kong as well. Please do not help a totalitarian state.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
This is an unfair argument because it's not a matter of 'culture' it's a broader set of ethical issues at stake. The Chinese are putting people into concentration camps on the basis of their ethnicity or religion, many are dying and their organs are being harvested. If the Western press weren't so hypocritically afraid of speaking out - this would be a huge global story, it's a really big deal. This is getting into holocaust territory in 2018 for gosh sakes. And it's definitely more than Americans speaking out.
- manfredo 8y ago
  I think pointing to different culture and history is a valid point of discussion. The point of view of a lot of the mainland Chinese people I've spoken to is that the post-Mao CCP has done a lot of bad, but also an immense amount of good for China as a whole. Compare the modern CCP with all of China's past governments of the last two centuries, and it's unambiguously better than Mao, the warlords, or the late Quing dynasty. Sure, maybe China would have been better off if the KMT won the civil war, but we can't change history. The history of what did happen is that after Mao the country went from struggling to feed most of it's people to what is likely the 2nd most powerful country on Earth. It went from GDP per capitalism of $1,000 in 1970 to $8,000 in 2010. China singlehandedly halved global poverty in doing so. While some of it's actions are appalling to foreigners, they are tolerated for historical reasons. E.g. distrust of organized religion stems from repeated religious rebellions that killed tens of millions of people, so many Chinese see the suppression of religion as a necessary measure to ensure social order. In that sense many Chinese have the same underlying ethical framework (don't needlessly cause harm, try to better the lives of everyday people, etc.), but the lessons history taught the country means that they pursue these ideals in a different way, and opt to make different tradeoffs when balancing different needs. While I am indeed apalled by some of the CCP's actions, I can empathize to a degree as to why Chinese people would still have a positive view of it overall. Of course, this is coming from a Westerner summarizing my interactions so it obviously risks putting words in other people's mouths.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    I don't doubt that there are cultural differences, and that 'good has been done' in the past, surely there is a cultural context. And FYI - any otherwise civilized place that was held back by totalitarian communists, or ruined by war was able to 'bounce back'. All of Europe was in ruin in 1945 - they also grew by 'leaps and bounds' after that time. China just had to wait for Mao to die. More poignantly - none of this can dismiss much of the abuse - it cannot be written of as 'cultural difference'.
    - manfredo 8y ago
      I think you're missing the point. Ask the question "What is the most effective way of curbing sectarian violence?". Both Chinese and Westerners agree that sectarian violence is bad - that's the same underlying ethical value. But the answer to that question will probably differ. At least in the US we try to curb sectarian violence by promoting tolerance and integration. Historically that had worked pretty well for us, we haven't seen much sectarian violence outside of small scale acts of terror and regional conflict (e.g. fights with early Mormon settlers). China, on the other hand, has lost 30 million people due to a religious rebellion in the 19th century. A staggering figure, exceeding even China's WWII casualties. Furthermore, the Holocaust did not occur in Asia (at least the overwhelming majority of it occurred in Europe) so concentration and surveillance of religious minorities does not strike the same nerve. With that history, I think a person can genuinely, earnestly believe that the CCP's policy towards Uhigyrs or Falun Gong is limiting human suffering in the grand scheme of things. This is what I mean when I say that it's possible to have the same underlying values, but people from different societies can come up with drastically different or even conflicting implementations. This is moral relativism to a degree. But empathy is an exercise in relativism. I don't like what China is doing to it's religious minorities, and I don't want this post to come off as trying to justify it. But if we do want to convince the country to change it's ways I think it's important to see why the country is doing what it is, and not pick an easy conclusion like saying China or the CCP is immoral.
      - sonnyblarney 8y ago
        No, I'm definitely not missing your point, I'm disagreeing, fyi and your comment is shocking and repulsive. You are justifying, on cultural grounds, the mass incarceration of a minority because 'they could pose a potential social problem, even though they are not presently' which is abhorrent. Yes a 'cultural context' of Han ethnocentric racism and open bigotry, perhaps, but of course this isn't really justifying anything. There is no rationalization for arbitrarily incarcerating massive parts of the population, it basically doesn't make any sense at all. Especially considering the none of the Falun Gong, Tibetans, Uighurs represent any threat to China's peace in the first place. Every place on Earth has had some degree of calamity or violence in the past, and China has definitely had it's share of mass murder (giving and receiving), there's no shortage of this in their own history books, if anything they should be even more enlightened about it all. There are no cultural arguments that can be made here, the situation, particularly because of the deaths and subsequent organ harvesting, is approaching 'holocaust' terms.
- justicezyx 8y ago
  > The Chinese are putting people into concentration camps on the basis of their ethnicity or religion, many are dying and their organs are being harvested A few glossy points are made here that rides on a racial or national stereotype. 1. It was Chinese government put people in concentration camp, not Chinese. In the current political atmosphere, I am very cautious to draw this line as a Chinese myself, for the fear of mobbing attacks on Chinese people oversea. 2. many are dying and their organs are being harvested You need to have reports to support claims of such outrageous behavior. Also it's not clear what is the actual things being done. Are people dying naturally in the camp, and got organ harvested? Or they were left to die without reasonable medical attentions. I presume the organ extraction has not got consent from the people, right?
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    #1 is a good point, but in my experience, 'The Governments' approach to Tibetans, Uighurs etc. has the general tacit support of 'The Chinese' and by that I should say 'Han'. Han ethno-nationalism is total and out in the open, it's normative. I suggest most of non-minority China actually supports much of this. As far as #2, it's splitting hairs. People are put in jail because of their ethnicity or faith, and one way or another, organs are being harvested on mass. Discussions of 'did the prisoners approve of their dismemberment after execution' are just a little insulting really. It's 2018, this is happening. http://eng.the-liberty.com/2018/7286/ http://eng.the-liberty.com/2018/7286/
    - yourbandsucks 8y ago
      And plenty of American overreactions to terror attacks also had broad support. Same for the Russians, the British, the French.. It's definitely interesting that Chinese nationals were almost universally for dragonfly and yet the "progressive" activists didn't care at all, preferring to pivot the topic into nationalist rivalry. Ask them in a vacuum and they'd say they treasure diverse perspectives..
      - wbl 8y ago
        The Chinese nationals who you heard from with the risk of disappearing on their mind. Ai Weiwei wasn't safe.
- kmlx 8y ago
  The American Government is putting brown children in concentration camps, separating them from their parents, and killing some of them in the process. If I was American I would be ashamed to comment on human rights abuses.
eganist 8y ago
> the main opposition is only coming from Americans... oddly enough. Precisely because Americans are concerned that the technology as prototyped in the Chinese market might subsequently be applied in a dark-future American market. It's not farfetched considering the current political climate here.
- mevile 8y ago
  It's not coming from just Americans, it's coming from anyone who wants to hold companies accountable for their behavior when it impacts the general wellbeing and rights of human beings, regardless of where they live. There's probably just more of that in western, non-authoritarian countries.
matz1 8y ago
For me is not thing about culture, its mainly convenient, I travel to china quite often, it sucks to have to mess with vpn which often doesn't work. Human rights issue is little of my concern, it doesn't effect my life in significant way.
int_19h 8y ago
> From what I've read, the main opposition is only coming from Americans... oddly enough. Google is headquartered in the USA. Not only that, but the engineers working on Dragonfly also reside and work in the USA. As such, not only is it not surprising that the main opposition is coming from Americans, but American citizens have a unique right to express it and have something done about that. If Google execs want to operate in China without being impeded by the American public opinion, they are welcome to spin off an independent organization for Dragonfly and headquarter it in China, where there are no such pesky obstacles.
fireattack 8y ago
Just by reading the comments below, I don't think there is any room for opinions of Chinese here. It will be downvoted to hell. Anyway, I will give you one thing: for Chinese it's about to have an obviously better product to use. It has very little to do with morality when they support it. Of course it's not the case for Americans (or any Westerners) as it doesn't directly affect them.

by QML 8y ago

ngcc_hk 8y ago

Come from Hong Kong as well. Please do not help a totalitarian state.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

This is an unfair argument because it's not a matter of 'culture' it's a broader set of ethical issues at stake. The Chinese are putting people into concentration camps on the basis of their ethnicity or religion, many are dying and their organs are being harvested. If the Western press weren't so hypocritically afraid of speaking out - this would be a huge global story, it's a really big deal. This is getting into holocaust territory in 2018 for gosh sakes. And it's definitely more than Americans speaking out.

manfredo 8y ago
I think pointing to different culture and history is a valid point of discussion. The point of view of a lot of the mainland Chinese people I've spoken to is that the post-Mao CCP has done a lot of bad, but also an immense amount of good for China as a whole. Compare the modern CCP with all of China's past governments of the last two centuries, and it's unambiguously better than Mao, the warlords, or the late Quing dynasty. Sure, maybe China would have been better off if the KMT won the civil war, but we can't change history. The history of what did happen is that after Mao the country went from struggling to feed most of it's people to what is likely the 2nd most powerful country on Earth. It went from GDP per capitalism of $1,000 in 1970 to $8,000 in 2010. China singlehandedly halved global poverty in doing so. While some of it's actions are appalling to foreigners, they are tolerated for historical reasons. E.g. distrust of organized religion stems from repeated religious rebellions that killed tens of millions of people, so many Chinese see the suppression of religion as a necessary measure to ensure social order. In that sense many Chinese have the same underlying ethical framework (don't needlessly cause harm, try to better the lives of everyday people, etc.), but the lessons history taught the country means that they pursue these ideals in a different way, and opt to make different tradeoffs when balancing different needs. While I am indeed apalled by some of the CCP's actions, I can empathize to a degree as to why Chinese people would still have a positive view of it overall. Of course, this is coming from a Westerner summarizing my interactions so it obviously risks putting words in other people's mouths.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  I don't doubt that there are cultural differences, and that 'good has been done' in the past, surely there is a cultural context. And FYI - any otherwise civilized place that was held back by totalitarian communists, or ruined by war was able to 'bounce back'. All of Europe was in ruin in 1945 - they also grew by 'leaps and bounds' after that time. China just had to wait for Mao to die. More poignantly - none of this can dismiss much of the abuse - it cannot be written of as 'cultural difference'.
  - manfredo 8y ago
    I think you're missing the point. Ask the question "What is the most effective way of curbing sectarian violence?". Both Chinese and Westerners agree that sectarian violence is bad - that's the same underlying ethical value. But the answer to that question will probably differ. At least in the US we try to curb sectarian violence by promoting tolerance and integration. Historically that had worked pretty well for us, we haven't seen much sectarian violence outside of small scale acts of terror and regional conflict (e.g. fights with early Mormon settlers). China, on the other hand, has lost 30 million people due to a religious rebellion in the 19th century. A staggering figure, exceeding even China's WWII casualties. Furthermore, the Holocaust did not occur in Asia (at least the overwhelming majority of it occurred in Europe) so concentration and surveillance of religious minorities does not strike the same nerve. With that history, I think a person can genuinely, earnestly believe that the CCP's policy towards Uhigyrs or Falun Gong is limiting human suffering in the grand scheme of things. This is what I mean when I say that it's possible to have the same underlying values, but people from different societies can come up with drastically different or even conflicting implementations. This is moral relativism to a degree. But empathy is an exercise in relativism. I don't like what China is doing to it's religious minorities, and I don't want this post to come off as trying to justify it. But if we do want to convince the country to change it's ways I think it's important to see why the country is doing what it is, and not pick an easy conclusion like saying China or the CCP is immoral.
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      No, I'm definitely not missing your point, I'm disagreeing, fyi and your comment is shocking and repulsive. You are justifying, on cultural grounds, the mass incarceration of a minority because 'they could pose a potential social problem, even though they are not presently' which is abhorrent. Yes a 'cultural context' of Han ethnocentric racism and open bigotry, perhaps, but of course this isn't really justifying anything. There is no rationalization for arbitrarily incarcerating massive parts of the population, it basically doesn't make any sense at all. Especially considering the none of the Falun Gong, Tibetans, Uighurs represent any threat to China's peace in the first place. Every place on Earth has had some degree of calamity or violence in the past, and China has definitely had it's share of mass murder (giving and receiving), there's no shortage of this in their own history books, if anything they should be even more enlightened about it all. There are no cultural arguments that can be made here, the situation, particularly because of the deaths and subsequent organ harvesting, is approaching 'holocaust' terms.
justicezyx 8y ago
> The Chinese are putting people into concentration camps on the basis of their ethnicity or religion, many are dying and their organs are being harvested A few glossy points are made here that rides on a racial or national stereotype. 1. It was Chinese government put people in concentration camp, not Chinese. In the current political atmosphere, I am very cautious to draw this line as a Chinese myself, for the fear of mobbing attacks on Chinese people oversea. 2. many are dying and their organs are being harvested You need to have reports to support claims of such outrageous behavior. Also it's not clear what is the actual things being done. Are people dying naturally in the camp, and got organ harvested? Or they were left to die without reasonable medical attentions. I presume the organ extraction has not got consent from the people, right?
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  #1 is a good point, but in my experience, 'The Governments' approach to Tibetans, Uighurs etc. has the general tacit support of 'The Chinese' and by that I should say 'Han'. Han ethno-nationalism is total and out in the open, it's normative. I suggest most of non-minority China actually supports much of this. As far as #2, it's splitting hairs. People are put in jail because of their ethnicity or faith, and one way or another, organs are being harvested on mass. Discussions of 'did the prisoners approve of their dismemberment after execution' are just a little insulting really. It's 2018, this is happening. http://eng.the-liberty.com/2018/7286/ http://eng.the-liberty.com/2018/7286/
  - yourbandsucks 8y ago
    And plenty of American overreactions to terror attacks also had broad support. Same for the Russians, the British, the French.. It's definitely interesting that Chinese nationals were almost universally for dragonfly and yet the "progressive" activists didn't care at all, preferring to pivot the topic into nationalist rivalry. Ask them in a vacuum and they'd say they treasure diverse perspectives..
    - wbl 8y ago
      The Chinese nationals who you heard from with the risk of disappearing on their mind. Ai Weiwei wasn't safe.
kmlx 8y ago
The American Government is putting brown children in concentration camps, separating them from their parents, and killing some of them in the process. If I was American I would be ashamed to comment on human rights abuses.

eganist 8y ago

> the main opposition is only coming from Americans... oddly enough. Precisely because Americans are concerned that the technology as prototyped in the Chinese market might subsequently be applied in a dark-future American market. It's not farfetched considering the current political climate here.

mevile 8y ago
It's not coming from just Americans, it's coming from anyone who wants to hold companies accountable for their behavior when it impacts the general wellbeing and rights of human beings, regardless of where they live. There's probably just more of that in western, non-authoritarian countries.

matz1 8y ago

For me is not thing about culture, its mainly convenient, I travel to china quite often, it sucks to have to mess with vpn which often doesn't work. Human rights issue is little of my concern, it doesn't effect my life in significant way.

int_19h 8y ago

> From what I've read, the main opposition is only coming from Americans... oddly enough. Google is headquartered in the USA. Not only that, but the engineers working on Dragonfly also reside and work in the USA. As such, not only is it not surprising that the main opposition is coming from Americans, but American citizens have a unique right to express it and have something done about that. If Google execs want to operate in China without being impeded by the American public opinion, they are welcome to spin off an independent organization for Dragonfly and headquarter it in China, where there are no such pesky obstacles.

fireattack 8y ago

Just by reading the comments below, I don't think there is any room for opinions of Chinese here. It will be downvoted to hell. Anyway, I will give you one thing: for Chinese it's about to have an obviously better product to use. It has very little to do with morality when they support it. Of course it's not the case for Americans (or any Westerners) as it doesn't directly affect them.