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>I (and many others I presume) also value the kind of insight people do get with psychedelics (and several other means, including philosophy). Even if it doesn'

by Retra 8y ago

>I (and many others I presume) also value the kind of insight people do get with psychedelics (and several other means, including philosophy). Even if it doesn't arrive in a readily communicable form. I hear what you're saying, but I don't understand why you're calling it insight. You can spend an hour talking to a AI chatbot about philosophy and value the experience. That doesn't mean the bot has some special insight. This is especially true if you're talking about things which can't be communicated effectively. If you're finding patterns in word salad, markov chained sentences, or the rantings of doped up philosophers, the insight still needs to be demonstrated independently.

ThomPete 8y ago
Insights do not have to be demonstrated in some scientific sense they just have to be useful. Some will be demonstrated some will be used, some are kept secret and many will be ignored. Even dreams will provide you with insights or melodies or perspectives or ideas because it frees up your pre-conceived thinking about a certain subject matter or even a whole set of subject matters. Insights aren't some scientifically testable hypothesis, they are utilitarian. You asked me to look it up. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/insight https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/insight It's pretty obvious that insights aren't as rigid as you seem to imply.
- Retra 8y ago
  >Insights aren't some scientifically testable hypothesis, they are utilitarian. "Utilitatian" in the sense of demonstrating value, which requires the utility of said insight to be communicated. I didn't imply any rigidity. I'm saying that the only way to know if your psychedelic ruminations are insightful is to communicate something of value to someone else... a feat which requires other people to see the value -- using their own capacity for insight. There's no point in being a brain-in-a-vat whose every thought is a brilliant revelation who nobody else shares. There's no reason for anyone else to call that insight or value. >You asked me to look it up. I asked you to look it up because you kept conflating insight with value. They are not the same thing, but you kept asking questions which presume they are. Gold is valuable. Gold is not value.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >"Utilitatian" in the sense of demonstrating value, which requires the utility of said insight to be communicated. I didn't imply any rigidity. Such an insight can have utilitarian value to the person experiencing it (to the point of improving their life etc) -- it doesn't have to be communicated to have utilitarian value. (Even more so it can have non-utilitarian value, e.g. they can derive enjoyment out of it). Besides, an insight that turns into a work of art, a song, etc, a philosophical rumination, etc, is still communicated, and depending on one's stance can be said to have utilitarian value (for a base example, many a drug-inspired songs have put food on the table for their songwriter). >I'm saying that the only way to know if your psychedelic ruminations are insightful is to communicate something of value to someone else... a feat which requires other people to see the value -- using their own capacity for insight. Well, the value millions of people have attributed to writings from people like Terrence McKenna, Huxley, Timothy Leary and so on, is enough to cover this, no? (We can of course argue of their "actual" value, but as concerning the "requires other people to see the value -- using their own capacity for insight", that's pretty much covered).
  - ThomPete 8y ago
    No an insight does not have to be communicated to someone else it can purely be for my own benefit. Insight and value IS two sides of the same coin, that's the point. You try to make them separate but insights without value are per definition not insights. It's the very point of insight that it has some value: 1 : the power or act of seeing into a situation : PENETRATION 2 : the act or result of apprehending the inner nature of things or of seeing intuitively OTHER things can have value too but insights cannot not be valuable unless you don't mean the ability to see into a situation or understanding the inner nature of something is valuable.
    - Retra 8y ago
      There are valueless insights. Especially if you don't communicate them. If you're on an imploding submarine on the bottom of the ocean and you get a flash of insight about how to do cold fusion... there's no value there. You're dead. It's just a shame you didn't figure out something relevant to your situation, rather than someone else's.

by Retra 8y ago

ThomPete 8y ago

Insights do not have to be demonstrated in some scientific sense they just have to be useful. Some will be demonstrated some will be used, some are kept secret and many will be ignored. Even dreams will provide you with insights or melodies or perspectives or ideas because it frees up your pre-conceived thinking about a certain subject matter or even a whole set of subject matters. Insights aren't some scientifically testable hypothesis, they are utilitarian. You asked me to look it up. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/insight https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/insight It's pretty obvious that insights aren't as rigid as you seem to imply.

Retra 8y ago
>Insights aren't some scientifically testable hypothesis, they are utilitarian. "Utilitatian" in the sense of demonstrating value, which requires the utility of said insight to be communicated. I didn't imply any rigidity. I'm saying that the only way to know if your psychedelic ruminations are insightful is to communicate something of value to someone else... a feat which requires other people to see the value -- using their own capacity for insight. There's no point in being a brain-in-a-vat whose every thought is a brilliant revelation who nobody else shares. There's no reason for anyone else to call that insight or value. >You asked me to look it up. I asked you to look it up because you kept conflating insight with value. They are not the same thing, but you kept asking questions which presume they are. Gold is valuable. Gold is not value.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >"Utilitatian" in the sense of demonstrating value, which requires the utility of said insight to be communicated. I didn't imply any rigidity. Such an insight can have utilitarian value to the person experiencing it (to the point of improving their life etc) -- it doesn't have to be communicated to have utilitarian value. (Even more so it can have non-utilitarian value, e.g. they can derive enjoyment out of it). Besides, an insight that turns into a work of art, a song, etc, a philosophical rumination, etc, is still communicated, and depending on one's stance can be said to have utilitarian value (for a base example, many a drug-inspired songs have put food on the table for their songwriter). >I'm saying that the only way to know if your psychedelic ruminations are insightful is to communicate something of value to someone else... a feat which requires other people to see the value -- using their own capacity for insight. Well, the value millions of people have attributed to writings from people like Terrence McKenna, Huxley, Timothy Leary and so on, is enough to cover this, no? (We can of course argue of their "actual" value, but as concerning the "requires other people to see the value -- using their own capacity for insight", that's pretty much covered).
- ThomPete 8y ago
  No an insight does not have to be communicated to someone else it can purely be for my own benefit. Insight and value IS two sides of the same coin, that's the point. You try to make them separate but insights without value are per definition not insights. It's the very point of insight that it has some value: 1 : the power or act of seeing into a situation : PENETRATION 2 : the act or result of apprehending the inner nature of things or of seeing intuitively OTHER things can have value too but insights cannot not be valuable unless you don't mean the ability to see into a situation or understanding the inner nature of something is valuable.
  - Retra 8y ago
    There are valueless insights. Especially if you don't communicate them. If you're on an imploding submarine on the bottom of the ocean and you get a flash of insight about how to do cold fusion... there's no value there. You're dead. It's just a shame you didn't figure out something relevant to your situation, rather than someone else's.