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> Accounting for population difference, on a per capita basis US police officers shoot citizens at a rate 37 times more frequently than the UK. The UK is not a

> Accounting for population difference, on a per capita basis US police officers shoot citizens at a rate 37 times more frequently than the UK. The UK is not a good example, since it is one of the few countries where most cops don't have guns.

maxxxxx 8y ago
Then take Germany. They have guns but in 2011 (only number I could find) 85 shots were fired during the whole year by all cops.
- detaro 8y ago
  Note: That's presumably "shots fired at persons", not "shots fired" overall. And even for that subset, different sources have different numbers, but they all fall in that rough area.
- pjc50 8y ago
  https://www.dw.com/en/police-in-germany-kill-more-than-you-think/a-38822484 https://www.dw.com/en/police-in-germany-kill-more-than-you-t... : German press is concerned that the police kill about 10 people per year, mostly during mental health episodes.
turc1656 8y ago
I get your point, but I have to disagree. The fact that the UK can have its officers not carry by default and armed officers only show up for the most extreme situations is a testament to how they are conducting their operations. They had only five deaths in 2017 due to officer shootings. Four of those were terrorist attacks. So their response time is good enough to stop terrorists with lethal force while also not resulting in extra civilian deaths and still keep their beat cops gun-free.
- dfsegoat 8y ago
  You can't extrapolate that model to the USA, where there are more firearms than citizens [1]. This means that the average risk / threat an officer may encounter in otherwise routine situations are quite different than the UK, which has very strict firearms policies, since they decided to ban almost all firearms in 1988 / 1997. 1 - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/06/19/there-are-more-guns-than-people-in-the-united-states-according-to-a-new-study-of-global-firearm-ownership/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/06/19/there...
  - HarryHirsch 8y ago
    And even with all those firearms available to US citizens, only about 40 police officers are shot dead every year in the US. Being in law enforcement isn't as dangerous as the police unions would like you to think.
    - danielvf 8y ago
      I live in the South, and know two officers currently working on the street. In the last five years, between the two of them: someone tried to run the officer over with a truck in a dark alley, a man pointed a shotgun at the officer's head from a few feet away (while carrying three guns and 400 rounds of ammo, and having previously fired several rounds through a house wall), a fleeing criminal pulled to the side of the road and opened fire at the officer, and while responding to an officer who had been shot in the woods, were ambushed by the suspect, who killed the officer next to him, and sent my acquaintance to the hospital for a month. And I don't even live in a high crime area of country!
      - HarryHirsch 8y ago
        Hey, I've got anecdata, too! My previous institution is on the hook for half a million dollars after an officer-involved shooting. This was a civil settlement, without admission of liability, the usual kind. The officer was permitted to resign. He had racked up an unusual number of disciplinary issues already but was never disciplined for that incident, when he severely injured the student. The police captain was also permitted to resign, even though there were severe concerns about discipline in the force he was overseeing. There was never a criminal trial for either of the two, there rarely is, because of the unholy alliance between the district attorney and the cops. Probably both are working for other police forces nearby, they love officers with a disciplinary record, it shows a willingness to go along and bend the rules. But this is the important anecdote: https://www.wrdw.com/content/news/Diabetic-man-has-episode-tased-by-police-502822791.html https://www.wrdw.com/content/news/Diabetic-man-has-episode-t... A diabetic man became hypoglycemic and confused, he led the police on a car chase and was then manhandled by two officers after he crashed into a ditch. He would like changes in protocol and can only pussyfoot around the real issue, police brutality, because everyone agrees that he deserved a beating. Or something. As is usual, there is nothing to see here, district attorney sides with the cops. Whatever anecdotes one has, citizens are more at risk from the police than the other way round.
- clubm8 8y ago
  > The fact that the UK can have its officers not carry by default and armed officers only show up for the most extreme situations is a testament to how they are conducting their operations. They also don't enforce every little law with force. They'll often just warn people to not smoke/drink in public, have people shake hands after a small bar fight with no injuries, and generally focus on restoring order rather than locking people up. If someone drives off, they run the plates or use CCTV, dashcam footage, or helicopters to track the driver rather than engage in dangerous chases. Their entire model is "policing by consent"[1] and an American cop would eat their service revolver if they were told they had to approach a yelling homeless man and say "Hi there, is something bothering you? Can we connect you with a social worker?" rather than demand compliance then tase them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles
- adrianratnapala 8y ago
  Yeah, I should have marked my comment as a nitpick. I suspect if you picked Germany or Australia or any of the other "normal" countries where cops do have guns, the stats would look more like the UK than the US. Partly because they too have better procedures.
pjc50 8y ago
The UK did, however, have a full troops-on-the-streets state of emergency in Northern Ireland for 30 years, complete with carbombings and firing on demonstrators; it would be interesting to compare the numbers for that with US policing. (Last time I ran the numbers, 70s Belfast was overall less dangerous than 80s Detroit, but someone else can do this one)
- ionised 8y ago
  Why would that comparison be helpful?

maxxxxx 8y ago

Then take Germany. They have guns but in 2011 (only number I could find) 85 shots were fired during the whole year by all cops.

detaro 8y ago
Note: That's presumably "shots fired at persons", not "shots fired" overall. And even for that subset, different sources have different numbers, but they all fall in that rough area.
pjc50 8y ago
https://www.dw.com/en/police-in-germany-kill-more-than-you-think/a-38822484 https://www.dw.com/en/police-in-germany-kill-more-than-you-t... : German press is concerned that the police kill about 10 people per year, mostly during mental health episodes.

turc1656 8y ago

I get your point, but I have to disagree. The fact that the UK can have its officers not carry by default and armed officers only show up for the most extreme situations is a testament to how they are conducting their operations. They had only five deaths in 2017 due to officer shootings. Four of those were terrorist attacks. So their response time is good enough to stop terrorists with lethal force while also not resulting in extra civilian deaths and still keep their beat cops gun-free.

dfsegoat 8y ago
You can't extrapolate that model to the USA, where there are more firearms than citizens [1]. This means that the average risk / threat an officer may encounter in otherwise routine situations are quite different than the UK, which has very strict firearms policies, since they decided to ban almost all firearms in 1988 / 1997. 1 - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/06/19/there-are-more-guns-than-people-in-the-united-states-according-to-a-new-study-of-global-firearm-ownership/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/06/19/there...
- HarryHirsch 8y ago
  And even with all those firearms available to US citizens, only about 40 police officers are shot dead every year in the US. Being in law enforcement isn't as dangerous as the police unions would like you to think.
  - danielvf 8y ago
    I live in the South, and know two officers currently working on the street. In the last five years, between the two of them: someone tried to run the officer over with a truck in a dark alley, a man pointed a shotgun at the officer's head from a few feet away (while carrying three guns and 400 rounds of ammo, and having previously fired several rounds through a house wall), a fleeing criminal pulled to the side of the road and opened fire at the officer, and while responding to an officer who had been shot in the woods, were ambushed by the suspect, who killed the officer next to him, and sent my acquaintance to the hospital for a month. And I don't even live in a high crime area of country!
    - HarryHirsch 8y ago
      Hey, I've got anecdata, too! My previous institution is on the hook for half a million dollars after an officer-involved shooting. This was a civil settlement, without admission of liability, the usual kind. The officer was permitted to resign. He had racked up an unusual number of disciplinary issues already but was never disciplined for that incident, when he severely injured the student. The police captain was also permitted to resign, even though there were severe concerns about discipline in the force he was overseeing. There was never a criminal trial for either of the two, there rarely is, because of the unholy alliance between the district attorney and the cops. Probably both are working for other police forces nearby, they love officers with a disciplinary record, it shows a willingness to go along and bend the rules. But this is the important anecdote: https://www.wrdw.com/content/news/Diabetic-man-has-episode-tased-by-police-502822791.html https://www.wrdw.com/content/news/Diabetic-man-has-episode-t... A diabetic man became hypoglycemic and confused, he led the police on a car chase and was then manhandled by two officers after he crashed into a ditch. He would like changes in protocol and can only pussyfoot around the real issue, police brutality, because everyone agrees that he deserved a beating. Or something. As is usual, there is nothing to see here, district attorney sides with the cops. Whatever anecdotes one has, citizens are more at risk from the police than the other way round.
clubm8 8y ago
> The fact that the UK can have its officers not carry by default and armed officers only show up for the most extreme situations is a testament to how they are conducting their operations. They also don't enforce every little law with force. They'll often just warn people to not smoke/drink in public, have people shake hands after a small bar fight with no injuries, and generally focus on restoring order rather than locking people up. If someone drives off, they run the plates or use CCTV, dashcam footage, or helicopters to track the driver rather than engage in dangerous chases. Their entire model is "policing by consent"[1] and an American cop would eat their service revolver if they were told they had to approach a yelling homeless man and say "Hi there, is something bothering you? Can we connect you with a social worker?" rather than demand compliance then tase them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles
adrianratnapala 8y ago
Yeah, I should have marked my comment as a nitpick. I suspect if you picked Germany or Australia or any of the other "normal" countries where cops do have guns, the stats would look more like the UK than the US. Partly because they too have better procedures.

pjc50 8y ago

The UK did, however, have a full troops-on-the-streets state of emergency in Northern Ireland for 30 years, complete with carbombings and firing on demonstrators; it would be interesting to compare the numbers for that with US policing. (Last time I ran the numbers, 70s Belfast was overall less dangerous than 80s Detroit, but someone else can do this one)

ionised 8y ago
Why would that comparison be helpful?