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It's hypocritical to attack Google for moving back to China after pulling out 7 years ago while other companies have been there continuously for years without b

It's hypocritical to attack Google for moving back to China after pulling out 7 years ago while other companies have been there continuously for years without backlash.

ocdtrekkie 8y ago
It's not hypocritical, because taking issue with Google's behavior and cheering for them losing here doesn't mean we support other companies still being in China. "But what about Apple" is a very specific conversational tactic, accurately named: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- cromwellian 8y ago
  Except that I never see any posts from you decrying Apple or any other company except Google. Google isn't operating in China right now, their "behavior" is that of having worked on something that didn't ship and apparently will never ship, as opposed to other companies actively collaborating and shipping things which harm Chinese citizens.
mcqueenjordan 8y ago
Google's previous stance was much more understandable: Let the Great Firewall do its work and we'll do ours.
- jayd16 8y ago
  If that's acceptable, then why was this unacceptable? Isn't this project mostly about figuring out whats blocked and caching that?
  - sterlind 8y ago
    I'm pretty surprised China didn't hand Google the dataset itself, or provide an IsThoughtCrime API. Perhaps they're actively looking for what sites Baidu proactively censors, rather than simply what gets blocked at the filter level. There's no way Google could operate without the PRC's blessing, and since they are, the PRC has no reason not to help them out with the firewall. But they can't exactly ask Baidu for a cup of sugar..
  - hopler 8y ago
    Dragonfly is about making Google an extension of the Chinese surveillance state, collecting personal information about Chinese people committing thoughtcrimes in google search, and giving that information to Chinese Communist Party
    - andromeduck 8y ago
      Do you think that bing and baidu and whatever else aren't doing the same?! Google not entering isn't going to change that except now they get less of a say because they're on the sidelines.
  - int_19h 8y ago
    It's the difference between not actively resisting something that is morally wrong, and actively assisting in its implementation.
    - jayd16 8y ago
      Maybe I'm missing a part of the plan but caching what was already going to be censored anyway doesn't seem that much further of a step. Is it that the censorship is more hidden? If they had a "show censored results" checkbox would that be acceptable? Or is Google search currently blocked entirely and trying to get unblocked is the moral dilemma? I'm just trying to understand the moral difference.
      - int_19h 8y ago
        > Maybe I'm missing a part of the plan but caching what was already going to be censored anyway doesn't seem that much further of a step. If you are going to deliberately kill someone who you know is going to be murdered by someone else anyway, before they do that, are you a murderer? I would dare say that most people would say "yes". The law certainly sees it that way.
PavlovsCat 8y ago
Hypocritical for who? For other companies, for Google employee, for commenters on this site? Who attacked Google in this thread? Who, precisely, is being hypocritical?

It's hypocritical to attack Google for moving back to China after pulling out 7 years ago while other companies have been there continuously for years without backlash.

ocdtrekkie 8y ago

It's not hypocritical, because taking issue with Google's behavior and cheering for them losing here doesn't mean we support other companies still being in China. "But what about Apple" is a very specific conversational tactic, accurately named: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

cromwellian 8y ago
Except that I never see any posts from you decrying Apple or any other company except Google. Google isn't operating in China right now, their "behavior" is that of having worked on something that didn't ship and apparently will never ship, as opposed to other companies actively collaborating and shipping things which harm Chinese citizens.

mcqueenjordan 8y ago

Google's previous stance was much more understandable: Let the Great Firewall do its work and we'll do ours.

jayd16 8y ago
If that's acceptable, then why was this unacceptable? Isn't this project mostly about figuring out whats blocked and caching that?
- sterlind 8y ago
  I'm pretty surprised China didn't hand Google the dataset itself, or provide an IsThoughtCrime API. Perhaps they're actively looking for what sites Baidu proactively censors, rather than simply what gets blocked at the filter level. There's no way Google could operate without the PRC's blessing, and since they are, the PRC has no reason not to help them out with the firewall. But they can't exactly ask Baidu for a cup of sugar..
- hopler 8y ago
  Dragonfly is about making Google an extension of the Chinese surveillance state, collecting personal information about Chinese people committing thoughtcrimes in google search, and giving that information to Chinese Communist Party
  - andromeduck 8y ago
    Do you think that bing and baidu and whatever else aren't doing the same?! Google not entering isn't going to change that except now they get less of a say because they're on the sidelines.
- int_19h 8y ago
  It's the difference between not actively resisting something that is morally wrong, and actively assisting in its implementation.
  - jayd16 8y ago
    Maybe I'm missing a part of the plan but caching what was already going to be censored anyway doesn't seem that much further of a step. Is it that the censorship is more hidden? If they had a "show censored results" checkbox would that be acceptable? Or is Google search currently blocked entirely and trying to get unblocked is the moral dilemma? I'm just trying to understand the moral difference.
    - int_19h 8y ago
      > Maybe I'm missing a part of the plan but caching what was already going to be censored anyway doesn't seem that much further of a step. If you are going to deliberately kill someone who you know is going to be murdered by someone else anyway, before they do that, are you a murderer? I would dare say that most people would say "yes". The law certainly sees it that way.

PavlovsCat 8y ago

Hypocritical for who? For other companies, for Google employee, for commenters on this site? Who attacked Google in this thread? Who, precisely, is being hypocritical?