7 ms·

Apple has a very significant manufactoring presence in China, so unfortunately they can't cleanly separate from China like Google can without risking retaliatio

Apple has a very significant manufactoring presence in China, so unfortunately they can't cleanly separate from China like Google can without risking retaliation

creato 8y ago
This is exactly why companies shouldn't be involved with business in China.
izacus 8y ago
Ah well, it's fine to violate human rights if it costs you money then. And as long as you have an apple in the logo I guess?
- tomatotomato37 8y ago
  Hey, never said I didn't approve of China's shite privacy & labor laws. That's why I always thought any minimum wage or labor law needs an accompanying tariff, to prevent manufacturers from just making the situation worse by externalizing their shit overseas
  - frabbit 8y ago
    I like that idea. After briefly searching for possible discussion/implementation of it I was unable to find any. Do you have any useful keywords or phrases I could use for such searches?
    - tomatotomato37 8y ago
      Unfortunately I don't; it's mostly a homebrewed concept after seeing too many arguments justifing outsourcing our everything because of high labor and environmental costs. I don't care if your for or against those types of laws, but if we go through the legislative effort to give up the economical efficiency for the social good and pass those laws, than you damn well better contribute to said social good if you want to do business on our shores
      - frabbit 8y ago
        Makes sense to me.
- yongjik 8y ago
  At the risk of sounding whataboutist, you could say the same thing for pretty much everything you buy, starting with your gas, electricity, and everything that's manufactured using them. It doesn't absolve Apple or other companies (or me), but it does make Apple an odd target to fix on.
  - longerthoughts 8y ago
    If you want to make a point about responsible corporate governance it probably does make sense to focus on one of the largest companies in the world, especially one with an exceptional amount of cash that makes it better prepared than others to suffer the consequences of a conscience-driven, money-losing decision. The reality is there's no way the company can make that change on the basis of "it's the right thing to do" without also being able to convincingly argue that it's better for long term shareholder value.
reaperducer 8y ago
Apple has a very significant manufactoring presence in China, so unfortunately they can't cleanly separate from China like Google can without risking retaliation Apple can walk away from China whenever it wants to. Apple is the one company in the entire world best equipped with the cash to make this kind of public stand. But it doesn't want to because doing so will cost a lot of that money. The only thing stopping Apple from closing its Chinese stores, and moving manufacturing to another country is fear of the faceless shareholder bots that have no AI for morality, and will punish Apple for doing the right thing. Every time I see Tim Cook on stage patting himself on the back for making some minor environmental improvement because it's the right thing to do, I can't help but think it's all a farce because incremental environmental improvements aren't even low-hanging fruit. They're the fruit that has already fallen from the tree and rolled through his front door into his kitchen. If Mr. Cook and the rest of his company want to impress, then do something hard. Disclosure: Apple shareholder, with morality, but not enough shares for Apple to care.
- CharlesW 8y ago
  > Apple can walk away from China whenever it wants to. Not unless they've spent the last decade building a secret duplicate supply chain ecosystem.
  - bitxbitxbitcoin 8y ago
    Complete with access to rare earth metal deposits that are currently secret from the world.
  - munk-a 8y ago
    It would take money and time but it's something they're very able to do. And, yes, they couldn't make this decision and instantly pivot, there are real physical things that would need to be built before they could.
    - Apocryphon 8y ago
      If they can already spend all this effort into making alternate chipsets...
ggggtez 8y ago
The only unique thing here is Google officially left China years ago, while other companies never did. Leaving China is a choice any company can make, and Apple could do it too. It's not like China is the only country in the world with workers or factories. Other countries would love for Apple to bring jobs to them. The decision isn't free, and that is the problem everyone is pointing out. You can't expect companies to "do the right thing" when it gets in the way of profit. The only way to make that happen is to put massive PR pressure on them to do "the right thing" whatever you believe that to be.
- longerthoughts 8y ago
  >The only way to make that happen is to put massive PR pressure on them to do "the right thing" whatever you believe that to be. Bad PR isn't enough. It takes convincing A LOT of customers to stop buying their products or convincing A LOT of shareholders to stop holding their stock. Public opinion is just a loose proxy for expected revenue - if revenue doesn't at least look like it might begin to significantly suffer, nothing is likely to change.
glenrivard 8y ago
What? Apple does NOT have to make phones in China. It is a big world. They chose to as they chose to give the China government their user data. "Campaign targets Apple over privacy betrayal for Chinese iCloud users" https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy-betrayal-for-chinese-icloud-users/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy... Versus Google picked up and left China in 2010 and walked away from billions.
JohnJamesRambo 8y ago
Sounds like a classic character test from mythology. Doing the right thing when it doesn't negatively affect you isn't really worth much.

Apple has a very significant manufactoring presence in China, so unfortunately they can't cleanly separate from China like Google can without risking retaliation

creato 8y ago

This is exactly why companies shouldn't be involved with business in China.

izacus 8y ago

Ah well, it's fine to violate human rights if it costs you money then. And as long as you have an apple in the logo I guess?

tomatotomato37 8y ago
Hey, never said I didn't approve of China's shite privacy & labor laws. That's why I always thought any minimum wage or labor law needs an accompanying tariff, to prevent manufacturers from just making the situation worse by externalizing their shit overseas
- frabbit 8y ago
  I like that idea. After briefly searching for possible discussion/implementation of it I was unable to find any. Do you have any useful keywords or phrases I could use for such searches?
  - tomatotomato37 8y ago
    Unfortunately I don't; it's mostly a homebrewed concept after seeing too many arguments justifing outsourcing our everything because of high labor and environmental costs. I don't care if your for or against those types of laws, but if we go through the legislative effort to give up the economical efficiency for the social good and pass those laws, than you damn well better contribute to said social good if you want to do business on our shores
    - frabbit 8y ago
      Makes sense to me.
yongjik 8y ago
At the risk of sounding whataboutist, you could say the same thing for pretty much everything you buy, starting with your gas, electricity, and everything that's manufactured using them. It doesn't absolve Apple or other companies (or me), but it does make Apple an odd target to fix on.
- longerthoughts 8y ago
  If you want to make a point about responsible corporate governance it probably does make sense to focus on one of the largest companies in the world, especially one with an exceptional amount of cash that makes it better prepared than others to suffer the consequences of a conscience-driven, money-losing decision. The reality is there's no way the company can make that change on the basis of "it's the right thing to do" without also being able to convincingly argue that it's better for long term shareholder value.

reaperducer 8y ago

Apple has a very significant manufactoring presence in China, so unfortunately they can't cleanly separate from China like Google can without risking retaliation Apple can walk away from China whenever it wants to. Apple is the one company in the entire world best equipped with the cash to make this kind of public stand. But it doesn't want to because doing so will cost a lot of that money. The only thing stopping Apple from closing its Chinese stores, and moving manufacturing to another country is fear of the faceless shareholder bots that have no AI for morality, and will punish Apple for doing the right thing. Every time I see Tim Cook on stage patting himself on the back for making some minor environmental improvement because it's the right thing to do, I can't help but think it's all a farce because incremental environmental improvements aren't even low-hanging fruit. They're the fruit that has already fallen from the tree and rolled through his front door into his kitchen. If Mr. Cook and the rest of his company want to impress, then do something hard. Disclosure: Apple shareholder, with morality, but not enough shares for Apple to care.

CharlesW 8y ago
> Apple can walk away from China whenever it wants to. Not unless they've spent the last decade building a secret duplicate supply chain ecosystem.
- bitxbitxbitcoin 8y ago
  Complete with access to rare earth metal deposits that are currently secret from the world.
- munk-a 8y ago
  It would take money and time but it's something they're very able to do. And, yes, they couldn't make this decision and instantly pivot, there are real physical things that would need to be built before they could.
  - Apocryphon 8y ago
    If they can already spend all this effort into making alternate chipsets...

ggggtez 8y ago

The only unique thing here is Google officially left China years ago, while other companies never did. Leaving China is a choice any company can make, and Apple could do it too. It's not like China is the only country in the world with workers or factories. Other countries would love for Apple to bring jobs to them. The decision isn't free, and that is the problem everyone is pointing out. You can't expect companies to "do the right thing" when it gets in the way of profit. The only way to make that happen is to put massive PR pressure on them to do "the right thing" whatever you believe that to be.

longerthoughts 8y ago
>The only way to make that happen is to put massive PR pressure on them to do "the right thing" whatever you believe that to be. Bad PR isn't enough. It takes convincing A LOT of customers to stop buying their products or convincing A LOT of shareholders to stop holding their stock. Public opinion is just a loose proxy for expected revenue - if revenue doesn't at least look like it might begin to significantly suffer, nothing is likely to change.

glenrivard 8y ago

What? Apple does NOT have to make phones in China. It is a big world. They chose to as they chose to give the China government their user data. "Campaign targets Apple over privacy betrayal for Chinese iCloud users" https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy-betrayal-for-chinese-icloud-users/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy... Versus Google picked up and left China in 2010 and walked away from billions.

JohnJamesRambo 8y ago

Sounds like a classic character test from mythology. Doing the right thing when it doesn't negatively affect you isn't really worth much.