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Yeah I'm not so sure Juul is that special. There are tons of competitors in what is effectively a new and disruptive space with tons of potential upside by re-

Yeah I'm not so sure Juul is that special. There are tons of competitors in what is effectively a new and disruptive space with tons of potential upside by re-legitimizing nicotine addiction. For whatever reason, they're winning, but there are so many factors beyond design that I'd be very reluctant to postulate this was the decisive factor. Marketing, branding, operations, access to large markets, talent, social proximity to 'free press', soft lobbying (i.e. close relationships to various institutions through hiring or serendipity etc.).

kitten_mittens_ 8y ago
> relegitimizing nicotine addiction You should visit Europe where smoking doesn't have nearly the amount of stigmatization it does in America. There are smoking rooms within my office in Germany, and the rooms smell like an American restaurant circa ‘95.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  Yes, I lived in Germany, it's a throwback. But your comment makes it seem as though the Euros have some bohemian progressive outlook in the issue; this is not nude sunbathing, this is smoking, it kills people for sure :).
- Vinnl 8y ago
  I'm not sure whether you can generalise over Europe that easily. There's quite the stigma on smoking in the Netherlands, which has for the largest part gained a foothold after banning smoking in working places (including cafés and bars). I haven't heard of a Dutch workplace offering special smoking rooms so far.
  - kitten_mittens_ 8y ago
    Can you smoke in Dutch bars? One thing that I was horrified by in the Netherlands was people smoking right at entrances to buildings. In the US, you have to be 20 ft (~6 meters) from entrances when you smoke.
    - Vinnl 8y ago
      Smoking in general has been prohibited for a few years. Many bars still have special smoking rooms, but they are on the verge of being prohibited as well. Smoking near entrances is, indeed, still often allowed, but that too is getting more and more pushback, and the number of places that allow it is clearly decreasing. Point being: there's a clear stigma against smoking here, and wherever we're "behind" in terms of pushing back against smoking, we are heading in the same direction.
- Ma8ee 8y ago
  Don’t generalise Germany to the whole of Europe. As a Swede that just came back from a visit to Germany I was actually appalled by how much you smoke there.
emsy 8y ago
Nicotine delivered through e-cigarettes is not even remotely as addictive as classical cigarettes. I also know 3 people that stopped using cigarettes using vapes, 2 of which stopped altogether.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  It's the same nicotine, and a nearly identical delivery method, and it's just as addictive - if not more so in some cases. The reason I believe it can more addictive is because of the constancy of vaping for some: with cigarettes, you 'have a break' and go out now and again. With vaping it can be 'all the time'. The higher frequency makes for ready addiction. Using people who are 'trying to quit smoking and using vaping as a mechanism' is a poor measure of determining the addictivity of vaping because people are already trying to quit. Personally, I quit 'light smoking' with vaping rather easily. But then I took up vaping for about a year, and quitting was brutally hard. I was not even a heavy vaper. It consumed my entire body. Quitting smoking I would get 'pangs' or 'acute' points where I wanted to have a cigarette - if I could get past that, it would be fine. With vaping ... it was like a constant pain. I think this was related to the nature of usage. And I was using a log mg vape, I could have easily moved up. Vaping is a really, really bad idea. Though the nicotine addiction is not nearly so hazardous alone, it's far worse or addicting than say, a coffee addiction - particularly for young people this is a bad idea.
  - daef 8y ago
    I've quit smoking involuntarily thanks to vaping: A friend told me to try vaping since he thought I might enjoy the 'manual part' (wrapping coils, mixing liquids). After 2 weeks of vaping I wanted to smoke a cig again. It tasted so awful that I instantly stopped smoking cigarettes and continued vaping (I still never intended to stop consuming nicotine, but the positive effects of not smoking were showing pretty immediately) My coils drifted into the subohm range pretty fast, mechmods and 100W+ boxes was what I needed to produce cubic meters of vape. But upping the volume of vaped liquid allowed me to reduce the relative nicotine contents (improving the taste of the liquid further) up to the point where I started asking myself whom for I'm consuming nicotine. Stopping to vape was pretty easy at that point. Never looked back.

kitten_mittens_ 8y ago

> relegitimizing nicotine addiction You should visit Europe where smoking doesn't have nearly the amount of stigmatization it does in America. There are smoking rooms within my office in Germany, and the rooms smell like an American restaurant circa ‘95.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
Yes, I lived in Germany, it's a throwback. But your comment makes it seem as though the Euros have some bohemian progressive outlook in the issue; this is not nude sunbathing, this is smoking, it kills people for sure :).
Vinnl 8y ago
I'm not sure whether you can generalise over Europe that easily. There's quite the stigma on smoking in the Netherlands, which has for the largest part gained a foothold after banning smoking in working places (including cafés and bars). I haven't heard of a Dutch workplace offering special smoking rooms so far.
- kitten_mittens_ 8y ago
  Can you smoke in Dutch bars? One thing that I was horrified by in the Netherlands was people smoking right at entrances to buildings. In the US, you have to be 20 ft (~6 meters) from entrances when you smoke.
  - Vinnl 8y ago
    Smoking in general has been prohibited for a few years. Many bars still have special smoking rooms, but they are on the verge of being prohibited as well. Smoking near entrances is, indeed, still often allowed, but that too is getting more and more pushback, and the number of places that allow it is clearly decreasing. Point being: there's a clear stigma against smoking here, and wherever we're "behind" in terms of pushing back against smoking, we are heading in the same direction.
Ma8ee 8y ago
Don’t generalise Germany to the whole of Europe. As a Swede that just came back from a visit to Germany I was actually appalled by how much you smoke there.

emsy 8y ago

Nicotine delivered through e-cigarettes is not even remotely as addictive as classical cigarettes. I also know 3 people that stopped using cigarettes using vapes, 2 of which stopped altogether.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
It's the same nicotine, and a nearly identical delivery method, and it's just as addictive - if not more so in some cases. The reason I believe it can more addictive is because of the constancy of vaping for some: with cigarettes, you 'have a break' and go out now and again. With vaping it can be 'all the time'. The higher frequency makes for ready addiction. Using people who are 'trying to quit smoking and using vaping as a mechanism' is a poor measure of determining the addictivity of vaping because people are already trying to quit. Personally, I quit 'light smoking' with vaping rather easily. But then I took up vaping for about a year, and quitting was brutally hard. I was not even a heavy vaper. It consumed my entire body. Quitting smoking I would get 'pangs' or 'acute' points where I wanted to have a cigarette - if I could get past that, it would be fine. With vaping ... it was like a constant pain. I think this was related to the nature of usage. And I was using a log mg vape, I could have easily moved up. Vaping is a really, really bad idea. Though the nicotine addiction is not nearly so hazardous alone, it's far worse or addicting than say, a coffee addiction - particularly for young people this is a bad idea.
- daef 8y ago
  I've quit smoking involuntarily thanks to vaping: A friend told me to try vaping since he thought I might enjoy the 'manual part' (wrapping coils, mixing liquids). After 2 weeks of vaping I wanted to smoke a cig again. It tasted so awful that I instantly stopped smoking cigarettes and continued vaping (I still never intended to stop consuming nicotine, but the positive effects of not smoking were showing pretty immediately) My coils drifted into the subohm range pretty fast, mechmods and 100W+ boxes was what I needed to produce cubic meters of vape. But upping the volume of vaped liquid allowed me to reduce the relative nicotine contents (improving the taste of the liquid further) up to the point where I started asking myself whom for I'm consuming nicotine. Stopping to vape was pretty easy at that point. Never looked back.