5 ms·

This person seems to think they are entitled to a living in art/poetry just because they got a graduate degree in it. Degrees don't ensure employment, marketab

This person seems to think they are entitled to a living in art/poetry just because they got a graduate degree in it. Degrees don't ensure employment, marketable skills do, and we should not mislead students to this fact.

TAForObvReasons 8y ago
> I had pushed for a college education, believing that with it came job security and the freedom to pursue my writing without the burden of poverty. Without familial wealth or a serendipitous set of circumstances, I would need at least a degree to be competitive if I wanted to move up and over the poverty line. This is a line sold to millions of students in all fields of study. You may be unsympathetic, but given the systemic promotion of higher education over the last few decades it's easy to understand why she would believe the degree would be the ticket to an opportunity in the field of study.
vonseel 8y ago
I wouldn't go that far. I read the article in full, and it's an interesting description of the world behind the things many of us take for granted (Amazon, etc.) as well as some commentary on the author's own life journey. It sounds like she expected it to be easier to find a REAL job with a degree - teaching, creative writing, etc. - only to be surprised at the lack of opportunities for "non-professional graduates". My parents strongly urged all of their children to pursue professional, specific degrees: engineering, law, medicine, or accounting/finance. They reinforced time and time again that "liberal arts degrees" provided fewer career options, and to put it plainly, that I would probably end up broke if I chosen that path. I don't think they would have provided financial support to study something like, for example, music. Or even psychology, for that matter, unless the goal was to be a PhD/academic. I agree with your points, however, that degrees do not guarantee employment and we should not mislead students. Too many students think "degree = job". Having observed the Norwegian education system from afar (Norwegian mother & family), I advocate the way they do it and the way many Europeans have vocational programs and opportunities for technical training as an alternative to university. Even the janitors in Switzerland may train for as much as 3 years ( see https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/swiss-skills_training-to-be-the-best--champion-apprentices/41043876 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/swiss-skills_training-t... ). Although, I do not know how that would work in the American culture, where tradesmen typically are not respected and do not make as much money as engineers and the like. Income inequality is a much bigger problem here than in some of the Scandinavian and European countries. TLDR: degree != job, if paying for degree, get a technical one (engineering), accounting/finance, or legal/medical. Make good grades. Grades are more important in some professions than others. Don't expect to get a job with a liberal arts degree.
- walshemj 8y ago
  Not always true a many of the high status high paying jobs out side of tech prefer traditional non STEM degrees. A degree in some of the traditional liberal degrees History, Litrature from good Uni (Ivys' Oxbridge ) is still viable. I used to work (at one of the big publishers) with a younger colleague who had a first from Oxford in English - she has now moved into the City and probably earns as much if not more than some of the developers
  - flossball 8y ago
    That is like saying all kids should play basketball because they could get into the NBA. There are always lucky rich people. A ton of Microsoft and Amazon VPs have local MBA degrees. Does that mean that my Seattle City MBA will make me $1 million a year?
    - walshemj 8y ago
      That's not the really same thing I was talking about high paid and high status jobs that almost universally recruit liberal arts grads "like them" from certain universities. The cult of the MBA is a separate thing.
      - flossball 8y ago
        Sorry, that was my point by approaching the 'truth' from both directions. They were already in the class or network of people. They knew they were going to be 'doing that work' because they were already recruited into that world long before university. It has nothing to do with their degree other than a passing qualification that they were expected to receive and in many cases the school just hands them no matter what their grades really were. The degree is a technicality to their position and I am saying that the example you gave while interesting is not normal for anyone planning to work for a living. I worked peripherally to publishing and am quite familiar with the situation. We had $1 million plus commission sales people 'of the right sort'. Did they know what the tech they sold did or have any real sales skills? Did it matter?
matt4077 8y ago
I'd share your sentiment if she were, say, complaining about her literary talents being wasted working on ads, or as an elementary school English teacher. But as she's working in an Amazon warehouse for just about minimum wage, so I don't quite see how one would see a sense of entitlement quite as prominently as you do. I could just as easily characterise the sentiment as "desperation". After all, the "American Dream" isn't, at its core, just about rags-to-riches. It's also about a society where everyone can find opportunity that at least approximately match one's aptitude. For the so-called "Great Generation" the situation was starkly different. While graduate degrees mattered less, opportunity was abundant. And someone somewhat diligent and not too stupid, as one without a doubt must be to keep a job in a warehouse while publishing essays as she does, would have found a way into the middle class[0]. To see this change and react with the sort of told-you-so glee of others' misfortune, possibly informed by some anxieties around "the two cultures", strikes me cruel. 0: only valid for white men, of course. So some things do get better with time.
rayiner 8y ago
She doesn’t seem entitled. Her plan was to start a business, not have a job drop in her lap. But entrepreneurship is also a bill of goods we sell young people. If you need money to buy food, don’t become an entrepreneur. At the end of the day, the economy is pushed forward by people employed at large corporations to produce the goods and services other people need. Reconcile yourself to that reality and position yourself to get a job working in that machine. (Unless you're special: you have independent financial security or some extremely marketable skill or credential.)
gumby 8y ago
It doesn't come off that way to me at all. She sounds like someone who hustles (in the positive sense) to do what she can and isn't crying about it, simply reflecting on whether that was a good choice or not, given how she ended up.
nerfhammer 8y ago
Without contradicting that, how is it ethical for a supposedly charitable, non-profit institution to charge young people with a hundred thousand dollars of debt for economically worthless degrees?
- caminante 8y ago
  It's only predatory if they mislead on outcomes. According to Glassdoor, $43k/y is the average salary for a creative writer.[0] [0] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/creative-writer-salary-SRCH_KO0,15.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/creative-writer-salary-SR...

TAForObvReasons 8y ago

> I had pushed for a college education, believing that with it came job security and the freedom to pursue my writing without the burden of poverty. Without familial wealth or a serendipitous set of circumstances, I would need at least a degree to be competitive if I wanted to move up and over the poverty line. This is a line sold to millions of students in all fields of study. You may be unsympathetic, but given the systemic promotion of higher education over the last few decades it's easy to understand why she would believe the degree would be the ticket to an opportunity in the field of study.

vonseel 8y ago

I wouldn't go that far. I read the article in full, and it's an interesting description of the world behind the things many of us take for granted (Amazon, etc.) as well as some commentary on the author's own life journey. It sounds like she expected it to be easier to find a REAL job with a degree - teaching, creative writing, etc. - only to be surprised at the lack of opportunities for "non-professional graduates". My parents strongly urged all of their children to pursue professional, specific degrees: engineering, law, medicine, or accounting/finance. They reinforced time and time again that "liberal arts degrees" provided fewer career options, and to put it plainly, that I would probably end up broke if I chosen that path. I don't think they would have provided financial support to study something like, for example, music. Or even psychology, for that matter, unless the goal was to be a PhD/academic. I agree with your points, however, that degrees do not guarantee employment and we should not mislead students. Too many students think "degree = job". Having observed the Norwegian education system from afar (Norwegian mother & family), I advocate the way they do it and the way many Europeans have vocational programs and opportunities for technical training as an alternative to university. Even the janitors in Switzerland may train for as much as 3 years ( see https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/swiss-skills_training-to-be-the-best--champion-apprentices/41043876 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/swiss-skills_training-t... ). Although, I do not know how that would work in the American culture, where tradesmen typically are not respected and do not make as much money as engineers and the like. Income inequality is a much bigger problem here than in some of the Scandinavian and European countries. TLDR: degree != job, if paying for degree, get a technical one (engineering), accounting/finance, or legal/medical. Make good grades. Grades are more important in some professions than others. Don't expect to get a job with a liberal arts degree.

walshemj 8y ago
Not always true a many of the high status high paying jobs out side of tech prefer traditional non STEM degrees. A degree in some of the traditional liberal degrees History, Litrature from good Uni (Ivys' Oxbridge ) is still viable. I used to work (at one of the big publishers) with a younger colleague who had a first from Oxford in English - she has now moved into the City and probably earns as much if not more than some of the developers
- flossball 8y ago
  That is like saying all kids should play basketball because they could get into the NBA. There are always lucky rich people. A ton of Microsoft and Amazon VPs have local MBA degrees. Does that mean that my Seattle City MBA will make me $1 million a year?
  - walshemj 8y ago
    That's not the really same thing I was talking about high paid and high status jobs that almost universally recruit liberal arts grads "like them" from certain universities. The cult of the MBA is a separate thing.
    - flossball 8y ago
      Sorry, that was my point by approaching the 'truth' from both directions. They were already in the class or network of people. They knew they were going to be 'doing that work' because they were already recruited into that world long before university. It has nothing to do with their degree other than a passing qualification that they were expected to receive and in many cases the school just hands them no matter what their grades really were. The degree is a technicality to their position and I am saying that the example you gave while interesting is not normal for anyone planning to work for a living. I worked peripherally to publishing and am quite familiar with the situation. We had $1 million plus commission sales people 'of the right sort'. Did they know what the tech they sold did or have any real sales skills? Did it matter?

matt4077 8y ago

I'd share your sentiment if she were, say, complaining about her literary talents being wasted working on ads, or as an elementary school English teacher. But as she's working in an Amazon warehouse for just about minimum wage, so I don't quite see how one would see a sense of entitlement quite as prominently as you do. I could just as easily characterise the sentiment as "desperation". After all, the "American Dream" isn't, at its core, just about rags-to-riches. It's also about a society where everyone can find opportunity that at least approximately match one's aptitude. For the so-called "Great Generation" the situation was starkly different. While graduate degrees mattered less, opportunity was abundant. And someone somewhat diligent and not too stupid, as one without a doubt must be to keep a job in a warehouse while publishing essays as she does, would have found a way into the middle class[0]. To see this change and react with the sort of told-you-so glee of others' misfortune, possibly informed by some anxieties around "the two cultures", strikes me cruel. 0: only valid for white men, of course. So some things do get better with time.

rayiner 8y ago

She doesn’t seem entitled. Her plan was to start a business, not have a job drop in her lap. But entrepreneurship is also a bill of goods we sell young people. If you need money to buy food, don’t become an entrepreneur. At the end of the day, the economy is pushed forward by people employed at large corporations to produce the goods and services other people need. Reconcile yourself to that reality and position yourself to get a job working in that machine. (Unless you're special: you have independent financial security or some extremely marketable skill or credential.)

gumby 8y ago

It doesn't come off that way to me at all. She sounds like someone who hustles (in the positive sense) to do what she can and isn't crying about it, simply reflecting on whether that was a good choice or not, given how she ended up.

nerfhammer 8y ago

Without contradicting that, how is it ethical for a supposedly charitable, non-profit institution to charge young people with a hundred thousand dollars of debt for economically worthless degrees?

caminante 8y ago
It's only predatory if they mislead on outcomes. According to Glassdoor, $43k/y is the average salary for a creative writer.[0] [0] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/creative-writer-salary-SRCH_KO0,15.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/creative-writer-salary-SR...