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I’ve always been wary of one-to-ones with the manager for the same reason. Is it ever good to talk about problems with a manager, especially regarding other peo

I’ve always been wary of one-to-ones with the manager for the same reason. Is it ever good to talk about problems with a manager, especially regarding other people? It’s like the prisoner’s dilemma. I still don’t know what’s best for me to talk about in this setting.

NateEag 8y ago
If you have a good manager, yes, it can be. A good one will often have years more experience at navigating tricky social and political situations than you do and will be able to help you work through any difficulties you're having with coworkers. Good managers are far rarer than good programmers, though. A decent litmus test for whether your manager can help with these kinds of problems is whether they've been on lots of productive projects and whether everyone likes them. If both things are true, they likely are quite good at navigating interpersonal conflicts and arriving at win-win outcomes. It's nigh-impossible to achieve both those outcomes in a large organization otherwise.
- 0db532a0 8y ago
  I’ve given up on the idea of good and bad people. I myself am good or bad depending on how it suits me. How could I do anything else? From my experience a manager will choose the option he thinks is most beneficial to his continued employment in the company. This includes maximising team support/influence over for instance making a change in a product with measurable benefit to the company, a change which even he himself might agree is a good idea. Who could blame him? Any manager who didn’t act in this way would surely be naive and idealistic. Assuming this is true for managers, what benefit could possibly be had from complaining about other colleagues. It could only serve to reduce his trust in me, and increase his fear that I would do the same to him. It is very difficult to balance things like team support, ensuring that I have interesting work to do and also ensuring continued employment. I have been too naive and idealistic, and now I am looking for a change of strategy. It’s all well and good to be aware of these realities, but much more difficult to put the conclusions into practice. Sometimes I think you’re just born with it.
  - NateEag 8y ago
    I never said the manager was a good or bad person. We all do lots of good and bad things, and the labels overall are pointless to apply to people. I did say "good manager" - for a particular role or job, I find "good X" an acceptable shorthand for "understands the core responsibilities of X well and reliably executes them well."
  - NateEag 8y ago
    A further reply, beyond my simplistic defense of my use of the term "good manager": It sounds like your "naive and idealistic" manager overlaps with my "good manager". I will argue that a manager's principle responsibility is actually to be a maintainer of relationships. Her responsibility is to maintain her relationship with each of her direct reports first and foremost, next to help them maintain their relationships with each other, and finally to help them maintain relationships with the other employees/teams in the company as necessary. Managers do have some logistical tasks they have to take care of, but mostly they "manage" humans, and that is fundamentally about keeping the relationships healthy and functional. It sounds from your description like you've never had a good manager, and I'm sorry for that. The good ones definitely are idealistic, but they're not naive. They are, as I mentioned earlier, in much shorter supply than good programmers. I've worked with far more decent programmers than I have decent managers (though since teams have N programmers to 1 manager on average, that may just be sampling bias). I should also note that when I'm having trouble with a coworker, my default is a one-on-one attempt to resolve the issue(s) directly. If that fails (or in the rare case where I think it's a bad plan), I don't go _complain_ to my manager as such - I ask for their help in mediating conflict and negotiations. Because a good one focuses on relationship maintenance, they're often better at handling those situations than I am, and at helping the different members of the conflict understand each other and resolve their disagreements amicably. Again - good ones are rare. I'm sorry you haven't gotten to experience one, from the sound of it.
vezycash 8y ago
Remembering this is important: Trust is earned. Test people in different ways to see if they can be trusted. Share inconsequential secrets and see who else hears it. Once had a boss who'd let cash drop while walking to see what you'd do. If you can't trust em, update your CV and get busy getting a new job you become desperate. Edit: https://www.inc.com/wanda-thibodeaux/want-to-know-if-someone-is-trustworthy-look-for-these-15-signs.html https://www.inc.com/wanda-thibodeaux/want-to-know-if-someone... Googled that for ya. Get others
- 0db532a0 8y ago
  I’m not sure things are so black and white. Although I would agree that trust is earned, I don’t think trust is the most important thing. Rather than relying on trusting other people in the workplace, it would be better to develop a system where people both trust you and rely on you. If I go to my manager and admit to him that I have problems, he will immediately suspect two things. One, that I don’t get on with people, and two, that I might rat him out one day. I have not been able to apply these ideas in real life, as I have been much too idealistic. I’m looking for a new strategy.
  - jpatokal 8y ago
    As a manager, it's far better for you to come to me with a problem than it is for me to hear about your problem from somebody else. (And if the manager is any good, they'll know about the problem already.)

NateEag 8y ago

If you have a good manager, yes, it can be. A good one will often have years more experience at navigating tricky social and political situations than you do and will be able to help you work through any difficulties you're having with coworkers. Good managers are far rarer than good programmers, though. A decent litmus test for whether your manager can help with these kinds of problems is whether they've been on lots of productive projects and whether everyone likes them. If both things are true, they likely are quite good at navigating interpersonal conflicts and arriving at win-win outcomes. It's nigh-impossible to achieve both those outcomes in a large organization otherwise.

0db532a0 8y ago
I’ve given up on the idea of good and bad people. I myself am good or bad depending on how it suits me. How could I do anything else? From my experience a manager will choose the option he thinks is most beneficial to his continued employment in the company. This includes maximising team support/influence over for instance making a change in a product with measurable benefit to the company, a change which even he himself might agree is a good idea. Who could blame him? Any manager who didn’t act in this way would surely be naive and idealistic. Assuming this is true for managers, what benefit could possibly be had from complaining about other colleagues. It could only serve to reduce his trust in me, and increase his fear that I would do the same to him. It is very difficult to balance things like team support, ensuring that I have interesting work to do and also ensuring continued employment. I have been too naive and idealistic, and now I am looking for a change of strategy. It’s all well and good to be aware of these realities, but much more difficult to put the conclusions into practice. Sometimes I think you’re just born with it.
- NateEag 8y ago
  I never said the manager was a good or bad person. We all do lots of good and bad things, and the labels overall are pointless to apply to people. I did say "good manager" - for a particular role or job, I find "good X" an acceptable shorthand for "understands the core responsibilities of X well and reliably executes them well."
- NateEag 8y ago
  A further reply, beyond my simplistic defense of my use of the term "good manager": It sounds like your "naive and idealistic" manager overlaps with my "good manager". I will argue that a manager's principle responsibility is actually to be a maintainer of relationships. Her responsibility is to maintain her relationship with each of her direct reports first and foremost, next to help them maintain their relationships with each other, and finally to help them maintain relationships with the other employees/teams in the company as necessary. Managers do have some logistical tasks they have to take care of, but mostly they "manage" humans, and that is fundamentally about keeping the relationships healthy and functional. It sounds from your description like you've never had a good manager, and I'm sorry for that. The good ones definitely are idealistic, but they're not naive. They are, as I mentioned earlier, in much shorter supply than good programmers. I've worked with far more decent programmers than I have decent managers (though since teams have N programmers to 1 manager on average, that may just be sampling bias). I should also note that when I'm having trouble with a coworker, my default is a one-on-one attempt to resolve the issue(s) directly. If that fails (or in the rare case where I think it's a bad plan), I don't go _complain_ to my manager as such - I ask for their help in mediating conflict and negotiations. Because a good one focuses on relationship maintenance, they're often better at handling those situations than I am, and at helping the different members of the conflict understand each other and resolve their disagreements amicably. Again - good ones are rare. I'm sorry you haven't gotten to experience one, from the sound of it.

vezycash 8y ago

Remembering this is important: Trust is earned. Test people in different ways to see if they can be trusted. Share inconsequential secrets and see who else hears it. Once had a boss who'd let cash drop while walking to see what you'd do. If you can't trust em, update your CV and get busy getting a new job you become desperate. Edit: https://www.inc.com/wanda-thibodeaux/want-to-know-if-someone-is-trustworthy-look-for-these-15-signs.html https://www.inc.com/wanda-thibodeaux/want-to-know-if-someone... Googled that for ya. Get others

0db532a0 8y ago
I’m not sure things are so black and white. Although I would agree that trust is earned, I don’t think trust is the most important thing. Rather than relying on trusting other people in the workplace, it would be better to develop a system where people both trust you and rely on you. If I go to my manager and admit to him that I have problems, he will immediately suspect two things. One, that I don’t get on with people, and two, that I might rat him out one day. I have not been able to apply these ideas in real life, as I have been much too idealistic. I’m looking for a new strategy.
- jpatokal 8y ago
  As a manager, it's far better for you to come to me with a problem than it is for me to hear about your problem from somebody else. (And if the manager is any good, they'll know about the problem already.)