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> It feels less gross if you think of "social punishment" as a lighter version of "legal punishment". The mental gymnastics people present for support on these

by tuxxy 8y ago

> It feels less gross if you think of "social punishment" as a lighter version of "legal punishment". The mental gymnastics people present for support on these policies is astounding to me.

monocasa 8y ago
In the states, if you're known for scientific misconduct, will you get a job at a a state school?
- jrumbut 8y ago
  Probably not but you can still buy train tickets, get a mortgage, and live in Manhattan if you make some other career work out for you. That's what's disturbing here, the link to this other system that is, in itself, nightmarish.
  - elliekelly 8y ago
    Right, their system seems to presuppose that if a person does something wrong once they should carry the consequences of that "misconduct" indefinitely. That's awfully pessimistic and depressing to me. Everyone has done something "wrong" at one point or another. Most people learn and grow from those mistakes. What will a society look like where people aren't free to learn from their mistakes but are instead perpetually held back by them?
    - chillacy 8y ago
      Based on a YouTube documentary I saw it seems like you can redeem your score through payments (officially to charity, but it doesn’t look like it’s transparent): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkw15LkZ_Kw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkw15LkZ_Kw Compare this to a prison system based on punishment instead of prevention, leading to depressing recidivism.
      - tuxxy 8y ago
        You really don't see any negatives to this?
        chillacy 8y ago
        See my original comment, I see plenty of negatives! But it seems most commenters here are only downsides. References to Black Mirror and 1984 everywhere. I think that’s overblown, and it seems to me like a great experiment to run and learn from. If it turns out to be terrible then we know, if it has upsides but has trade offs in privacy that the west won’t like, then we know. But shouldn’t we find out? I have the same thought behind UBI and drug decriminalization as well: thought experiments be damned, go try it and see.
      - elliekelly 8y ago
        Thanks for sharing! That was really interesting! From your other comments it looks like you live in China? What has the reception been so far? I didn't realize the point system so subjective until I watched that clip you shared. How do they decide who becomes an "Information Collector?" Those positions will surely be highly coveted because they come with a massive amount of power and influence over their neighbors' lives. What concerns me about the payment system is that it seems like a fast-track to massive inequality - wealth, social, and justice. If someone can simply pay to erase their "bad" behavior then there's functionally one set of "rules" for those who can afford not to follow them and another set of rules that are actually enforced, in life changing ways, for everyone else.

by tuxxy 8y ago

> It feels less gross if you think of "social punishment" as a lighter version of "legal punishment". The mental gymnastics people present for support on these policies is astounding to me.

monocasa 8y ago

In the states, if you're known for scientific misconduct, will you get a job at a a state school?

jrumbut 8y ago
Probably not but you can still buy train tickets, get a mortgage, and live in Manhattan if you make some other career work out for you. That's what's disturbing here, the link to this other system that is, in itself, nightmarish.
- elliekelly 8y ago
  Right, their system seems to presuppose that if a person does something wrong once they should carry the consequences of that "misconduct" indefinitely. That's awfully pessimistic and depressing to me. Everyone has done something "wrong" at one point or another. Most people learn and grow from those mistakes. What will a society look like where people aren't free to learn from their mistakes but are instead perpetually held back by them?
  - chillacy 8y ago
    Based on a YouTube documentary I saw it seems like you can redeem your score through payments (officially to charity, but it doesn’t look like it’s transparent): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkw15LkZ_Kw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkw15LkZ_Kw Compare this to a prison system based on punishment instead of prevention, leading to depressing recidivism.
    - tuxxy 8y ago
      You really don't see any negatives to this?
      - chillacy 8y ago
        See my original comment, I see plenty of negatives! But it seems most commenters here are only downsides. References to Black Mirror and 1984 everywhere. I think that’s overblown, and it seems to me like a great experiment to run and learn from. If it turns out to be terrible then we know, if it has upsides but has trade offs in privacy that the west won’t like, then we know. But shouldn’t we find out? I have the same thought behind UBI and drug decriminalization as well: thought experiments be damned, go try it and see.
    - elliekelly 8y ago
      Thanks for sharing! That was really interesting! From your other comments it looks like you live in China? What has the reception been so far? I didn't realize the point system so subjective until I watched that clip you shared. How do they decide who becomes an "Information Collector?" Those positions will surely be highly coveted because they come with a massive amount of power and influence over their neighbors' lives. What concerns me about the payment system is that it seems like a fast-track to massive inequality - wealth, social, and justice. If someone can simply pay to erase their "bad" behavior then there's functionally one set of "rules" for those who can afford not to follow them and another set of rules that are actually enforced, in life changing ways, for everyone else.