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Will this weaken the scientific community in China? Will this cause researchers to become adverse to speaking out for fear of retaliatory attacks on themselves

by cenal 8y ago

Will this weaken the scientific community in China? Will this cause researchers to become adverse to speaking out for fear of retaliatory attacks on themselves? Seems like a major step in the wrong direction for Chinese society.

TomMarius 8y ago
I thought that's what people wanted? Everyone said that the scientist who cloned a baby should be punished.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  The government handing out the punishments is itself untrustworthy, which is why every additional power they give themselves is a step in the wrong direction. >dozens of government agencies will have the power to hand out penalties to those caught committing major scientific misconduct The key insight here is that you are not being punished as a result of a long, careful process administered by judges and a jury of your peers (which has some problems but at least is designed to be careful and not political), but instead will be at the mercy of a few government agencies which must by their very construction be political. In the US, there is a similar problem in a much smaller dose, where the government is likewise attempting to assign itself more power without introducing controls to let the citizens be the ones who ultimately decide what happens. One example would be the "secret courts" in the NSA problem. Although the US government is presently much nicer to its citizens than the Chinese government, the only reason this is true is because US citizens have more leverage on the US government than Chinese citizens do on theirs. This can change, and unsurprisingly the officials are trying to gain more authority.
- PavlovsCat 8y ago
  It's not what anyone who wants that scientist to be punished automatically wants, no more than someone who wants a glass of water wants a tsunami. Besides, the Chinese authorities already said what he did violates Chinese law, so what would introducing new laws achieve here, unless they're applied retroactively? The last thing I heard was that he went missing, any updates on that?
chillacy 8y ago
> Chinese leaders have been increasingly focused on scientific misconduct, following ongoing reports of researchers there using fraudulent data, falsifying CVs and faking peer reviews It sounds like a step in the right direction. It feels less gross if you think of "social punishment" as a lighter version of "legal punishment". No need to send cheaters to jail, but don't let them off the hook either. Assuming the system won't be abused for political (I'm sure it will), the detection is accurate (I'm sure it'll be hard), the social punishment is reasonable (we'll see), it sounds reasonable in theory.
- snaky 8y ago
  So it might be a wrong step in right direction - as the majority of regulations usually are.
- tuxxy 8y ago
  > It feels less gross if you think of "social punishment" as a lighter version of "legal punishment". The mental gymnastics people present for support on these policies is astounding to me.
  - monocasa 8y ago
    In the states, if you're known for scientific misconduct, will you get a job at a a state school?
    - jrumbut 8y ago
      Probably not but you can still buy train tickets, get a mortgage, and live in Manhattan if you make some other career work out for you. That's what's disturbing here, the link to this other system that is, in itself, nightmarish.
      - elliekelly 8y ago
        Right, their system seems to presuppose that if a person does something wrong once they should carry the consequences of that "misconduct" indefinitely. That's awfully pessimistic and depressing to me. Everyone has done something "wrong" at one point or another. Most people learn and grow from those mistakes. What will a society look like where people aren't free to learn from their mistakes but are instead perpetually held back by them?
qwerty456127 8y ago
> Will this weaken the scientific community in China? It most probraly will because as soon as the system starts working the definition of "misconduct" will probably include ideologically-incorrect research results and subjects, failures to comply to the Chinese job etiquette etc. And the Chinese Government reaction on Dr. He's breakthrough is an example of how policy can stand against science.
jVinc 8y ago
The scientific community is not strengthened in any way by those who falsify data and credentials. Quite the contrary, sometimes other scientists dedicate years to worthless pursuits because they are working in a "promising" direction set forth by others who fabricate impressive results in order to progress their carrier.
karmasimida 8y ago
I would say it depends. If you have to stereotype Chinese dominated community, I think one pattern might emerge, the disregard towards rules particularly if that leads to personal advantages. In other words, rules speak louder when employed for punishment rather than respected as means to obtain the greater good. There is possibility such punishments could be abused, but as many things happened in China, the execution of such is contextual and selective, so only time will tell.

by cenal 8y ago

TomMarius 8y ago

I thought that's what people wanted? Everyone said that the scientist who cloned a baby should be punished.

whatshisface 8y ago
The government handing out the punishments is itself untrustworthy, which is why every additional power they give themselves is a step in the wrong direction. >dozens of government agencies will have the power to hand out penalties to those caught committing major scientific misconduct The key insight here is that you are not being punished as a result of a long, careful process administered by judges and a jury of your peers (which has some problems but at least is designed to be careful and not political), but instead will be at the mercy of a few government agencies which must by their very construction be political. In the US, there is a similar problem in a much smaller dose, where the government is likewise attempting to assign itself more power without introducing controls to let the citizens be the ones who ultimately decide what happens. One example would be the "secret courts" in the NSA problem. Although the US government is presently much nicer to its citizens than the Chinese government, the only reason this is true is because US citizens have more leverage on the US government than Chinese citizens do on theirs. This can change, and unsurprisingly the officials are trying to gain more authority.
PavlovsCat 8y ago
It's not what anyone who wants that scientist to be punished automatically wants, no more than someone who wants a glass of water wants a tsunami. Besides, the Chinese authorities already said what he did violates Chinese law, so what would introducing new laws achieve here, unless they're applied retroactively? The last thing I heard was that he went missing, any updates on that?

chillacy 8y ago

> Chinese leaders have been increasingly focused on scientific misconduct, following ongoing reports of researchers there using fraudulent data, falsifying CVs and faking peer reviews It sounds like a step in the right direction. It feels less gross if you think of "social punishment" as a lighter version of "legal punishment". No need to send cheaters to jail, but don't let them off the hook either. Assuming the system won't be abused for political (I'm sure it will), the detection is accurate (I'm sure it'll be hard), the social punishment is reasonable (we'll see), it sounds reasonable in theory.

snaky 8y ago
So it might be a wrong step in right direction - as the majority of regulations usually are.
tuxxy 8y ago
> It feels less gross if you think of "social punishment" as a lighter version of "legal punishment". The mental gymnastics people present for support on these policies is astounding to me.
- monocasa 8y ago
  In the states, if you're known for scientific misconduct, will you get a job at a a state school?
  - jrumbut 8y ago
    Probably not but you can still buy train tickets, get a mortgage, and live in Manhattan if you make some other career work out for you. That's what's disturbing here, the link to this other system that is, in itself, nightmarish.
    - elliekelly 8y ago
      Right, their system seems to presuppose that if a person does something wrong once they should carry the consequences of that "misconduct" indefinitely. That's awfully pessimistic and depressing to me. Everyone has done something "wrong" at one point or another. Most people learn and grow from those mistakes. What will a society look like where people aren't free to learn from their mistakes but are instead perpetually held back by them?

qwerty456127 8y ago

> Will this weaken the scientific community in China? It most probraly will because as soon as the system starts working the definition of "misconduct" will probably include ideologically-incorrect research results and subjects, failures to comply to the Chinese job etiquette etc. And the Chinese Government reaction on Dr. He's breakthrough is an example of how policy can stand against science.

jVinc 8y ago

The scientific community is not strengthened in any way by those who falsify data and credentials. Quite the contrary, sometimes other scientists dedicate years to worthless pursuits because they are working in a "promising" direction set forth by others who fabricate impressive results in order to progress their carrier.

karmasimida 8y ago

I would say it depends. If you have to stereotype Chinese dominated community, I think one pattern might emerge, the disregard towards rules particularly if that leads to personal advantages. In other words, rules speak louder when employed for punishment rather than respected as means to obtain the greater good. There is possibility such punishments could be abused, but as many things happened in China, the execution of such is contextual and selective, so only time will tell.