4 ms·

> it took just 2 weeks to learn How are you measuring having "learnt" a language? Because IMHO that's an incredible feet that almost requires you not to sleep!

> it took just 2 weeks to learn How are you measuring having "learnt" a language? Because IMHO that's an incredible feet that almost requires you not to sleep! Or do you just mean learning the grammar?

qwerty456127 8y ago
I mean learning it to the point when you can say anything you might want to tell somebody you meet in real life (not in a philosophical discussion club however), looking up some words in a dictionary occasionally: the grammar + basic vocabulary (+ phonetics, orthography etc of course). It is worth mentioning, however, that I've already forgotten almost everything I've learnt of Spanish as practice is vital for remembering and I had absolutely no practice after learning it.
- drugme 8y ago
  looking up some words in a dictionary occasionally... It is worth mentioning, however, that I've already forgotten almost everything I've learnt of Spanish Well that's the whole point -- you didn't really "learn it", then. You just learned the rough outlines of it.
  - qwerty456127 8y ago
    "looking up some words in a dictionary OCCASIONALLY". There is no single language I can speak/write without looking up some words in a dictionary ever. Is there a definition of having learnt a language or of "the rough outlines"? As for me having learnt a language means being able to communicate in it fluently (not necessarily in a finely literate manner) and for "the rough outlines" - do we ever learn anything but the rough outlines of anything? I can't even say I know anything but the rough outlines of my native language (it had never felt any close to possible for me to write it without mistakes) or of English.
    - drugme 8y ago
      Do we ever learn anything but the rough outlines of anything? Actually, people do -- those who become, if not necessarily world-reknown experts -- at least generally recognized as competent professionals in just about any field. For example, if you've managed to successfully operate a well-regarded restaurant in a major city for a significant length of time (10 years, say) -- it's safe to say that you've moved beyond learning the "rough outlines" of that field - but in fact have mastered the core material. As for learning a language - the metrics would probably be (1) fluency (not needing a dictionary to make yourself understood 99% of the time, in quotidian contexts at least) and (2) durability (not forgetting everything you've learned after a few weeks or months). That is to say - they've mastered the core material. Most language learners are on a spectrum somewhere between these endpoints (and your English is really quite good, BTW). The whole point it, it sounds like your exposure to Spanish was much closer to learning the "rough outlines" of it than having "mastered the core". Which is generally what people mean by saying "I learned X" (as opposed to "I learned a bit of X").
      - qwerty456127 8y ago
        Nice point. > not needing a dictionary to make yourself understood 99% of the time, in quotidian contexts at least ... (and your English is really quite good, BTW) But I still had to google the definition of "quotidian" - although my guess of what does it mean given the context was correct I had never met it before. A nice addition to my vocabulary, thanks :-) > The whole point it, it sounds like your exposure to Spanish was much closer to learning the "rough outlines" of it than having "mastered the core". That's why I've said I've learnt it, not mastered it. I doubt I'm going to master any language ever. Perhaps I could master my native language if I were interested enough. It seems people capable of mastering a foreign language are rare and they usually work at intelligence agencies AFAIK. > Which is generally what people mean by saying "I learned X" (as opposed to "I learned a bit of X"). IMHO saying "I learned a bit of X" would mean "I can say 'hello', 'bye', 'my name is' and 'I'd like a cup of coffee' in it", having intuitive understanding of the language grammar and being able to express any quotidian idea in it so you would be comfortable living in the country, would feel no "language barrier" and would be able to read a local newspaper qualifies for having learnt (not "mastered") a language.
qwerty456127 8y ago
> almost requires you not to sleep! In fact it requires you to sleep well, eat well, take nootropics, exercise physically outdoors and be motivated by something extremely inspirational like having fallen in love. And the exercise time is not excluded from the study time - listen to good audio courses (like Michel Thomas and/or Pimsleur) during it.
presidentender 8y ago
A friend of mine knows Java, Python, Perl, OCaml, Rust, F#, Scala, Clojure, x86 assembly, and Tcl. I asked him to follow a web framework tutorial, toss the result on github, and forward it to me so that I could get him a job. He did not complete the tutorial, but he knows those languages, if you're talking to him. Rest assured that our friend in this thread knows Spanish, so long as we're talking to him. Sorry, he knew Spanish; I see elsewhere in the thread that he has forgotten much of what he learned.
- qwerty456127 8y ago
  Could you possibly share the tutorial with us? I can hardly imagine a tutorial somebody could have failed.
  - presidentender 8y ago
    My point is not that the tutorial was hard. My point is that to "know" a language in my friend's estimation is different than what it is to "know" a language for my purposes, as I believe is the case with your Spanish. For your edification, though: https://github.com/jamesward/play2torial https://github.com/jamesward/play2torial

qwerty456127 8y ago

I mean learning it to the point when you can say anything you might want to tell somebody you meet in real life (not in a philosophical discussion club however), looking up some words in a dictionary occasionally: the grammar + basic vocabulary (+ phonetics, orthography etc of course). It is worth mentioning, however, that I've already forgotten almost everything I've learnt of Spanish as practice is vital for remembering and I had absolutely no practice after learning it.

drugme 8y ago
looking up some words in a dictionary occasionally... It is worth mentioning, however, that I've already forgotten almost everything I've learnt of Spanish Well that's the whole point -- you didn't really "learn it", then. You just learned the rough outlines of it.
- qwerty456127 8y ago
  "looking up some words in a dictionary OCCASIONALLY". There is no single language I can speak/write without looking up some words in a dictionary ever. Is there a definition of having learnt a language or of "the rough outlines"? As for me having learnt a language means being able to communicate in it fluently (not necessarily in a finely literate manner) and for "the rough outlines" - do we ever learn anything but the rough outlines of anything? I can't even say I know anything but the rough outlines of my native language (it had never felt any close to possible for me to write it without mistakes) or of English.
  - drugme 8y ago
    Do we ever learn anything but the rough outlines of anything? Actually, people do -- those who become, if not necessarily world-reknown experts -- at least generally recognized as competent professionals in just about any field. For example, if you've managed to successfully operate a well-regarded restaurant in a major city for a significant length of time (10 years, say) -- it's safe to say that you've moved beyond learning the "rough outlines" of that field - but in fact have mastered the core material. As for learning a language - the metrics would probably be (1) fluency (not needing a dictionary to make yourself understood 99% of the time, in quotidian contexts at least) and (2) durability (not forgetting everything you've learned after a few weeks or months). That is to say - they've mastered the core material. Most language learners are on a spectrum somewhere between these endpoints (and your English is really quite good, BTW). The whole point it, it sounds like your exposure to Spanish was much closer to learning the "rough outlines" of it than having "mastered the core". Which is generally what people mean by saying "I learned X" (as opposed to "I learned a bit of X").
    - qwerty456127 8y ago
      Nice point. > not needing a dictionary to make yourself understood 99% of the time, in quotidian contexts at least ... (and your English is really quite good, BTW) But I still had to google the definition of "quotidian" - although my guess of what does it mean given the context was correct I had never met it before. A nice addition to my vocabulary, thanks :-) > The whole point it, it sounds like your exposure to Spanish was much closer to learning the "rough outlines" of it than having "mastered the core". That's why I've said I've learnt it, not mastered it. I doubt I'm going to master any language ever. Perhaps I could master my native language if I were interested enough. It seems people capable of mastering a foreign language are rare and they usually work at intelligence agencies AFAIK. > Which is generally what people mean by saying "I learned X" (as opposed to "I learned a bit of X"). IMHO saying "I learned a bit of X" would mean "I can say 'hello', 'bye', 'my name is' and 'I'd like a cup of coffee' in it", having intuitive understanding of the language grammar and being able to express any quotidian idea in it so you would be comfortable living in the country, would feel no "language barrier" and would be able to read a local newspaper qualifies for having learnt (not "mastered") a language.

qwerty456127 8y ago

> almost requires you not to sleep! In fact it requires you to sleep well, eat well, take nootropics, exercise physically outdoors and be motivated by something extremely inspirational like having fallen in love. And the exercise time is not excluded from the study time - listen to good audio courses (like Michel Thomas and/or Pimsleur) during it.

presidentender 8y ago

A friend of mine knows Java, Python, Perl, OCaml, Rust, F#, Scala, Clojure, x86 assembly, and Tcl. I asked him to follow a web framework tutorial, toss the result on github, and forward it to me so that I could get him a job. He did not complete the tutorial, but he knows those languages, if you're talking to him. Rest assured that our friend in this thread knows Spanish, so long as we're talking to him. Sorry, he knew Spanish; I see elsewhere in the thread that he has forgotten much of what he learned.

qwerty456127 8y ago
Could you possibly share the tutorial with us? I can hardly imagine a tutorial somebody could have failed.
- presidentender 8y ago
  My point is not that the tutorial was hard. My point is that to "know" a language in my friend's estimation is different than what it is to "know" a language for my purposes, as I believe is the case with your Spanish. For your edification, though: https://github.com/jamesward/play2torial https://github.com/jamesward/play2torial