5 ms·

How India's sex workers prevented an Aids epidemic

123 points by sonabinu 8y ago

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
btown 8y ago
While I applaud the success of this program, this specific article is a good reminder of why it’s important to read critically. > The programme, which cost $375m (£297m), is credited with an important role in the subsequent decline in India’s HIV status. Why passive voice here? What authority credited the organization’s work in this way? On a closer read, it becomes obvious that there are no primary or secondary sources quoted except the author of this book and anecdotes presented therein; essentially, this is no more than a book review. Is there a larger story here? Are there any suggestions or criticisms that suggest this may not be an optimal approach? As submarines [0] go, this is a pretty harmless and feel-good one. But keep an eye out for articles with similar structure that seek to shape your opinions. [0] http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html
- jrumbut 8y ago
  It would be of tremendous benefit (and of course an opportunity for appropriate praise) to learn who coughed up a pretty chunk of money to help people who aren't very popular. As far as I can tell it is primarily the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation: https://www.gatesfoundation.org/Media-Center/Press-Releases/2009/07/Avahan-AIDS-Initiative-Commitment-Increased-to-$338-Million https://www.gatesfoundation.org/Media-Center/Press-Releases/...
  - mirimir 8y ago
    Thanks. And there's an interesting juxtaposition with another front-page submission. From this article: > Alexander, 64, was born into India’s elite. His father, PC Alexander, was principal secretary to Indira Gandhi. In leaving his career as senior director in the India office of McKinsey & Company to join the campaign to stop the spread of HIV, Alexander swapped a life of plush boardrooms and fine dining with CEOs for sitting on mud floors with sex workers, gay and transgender people and intravenous drug users. In short, a world of which he had little knowledge. The other one criticizes McKinsey & Company: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18691413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18691413
- pjg 8y ago
  This does feel like poorly researched self-aggrandizing article. It starts of by "In 2002, a major report predicted an Aids catastrophe in India" - but offers no citation. Which report and who authored it based on what data ? Again while the effort expended is commendable I find it hard to believe that this program which by it's own admission catered to a peak of appx. 0.02% of the population single handedly prevented an Aids epidemic
  - _jgdh 8y ago
    Having lived in India at the time, I know that it was a disaster waiting to happen. It's hard to measure the impact of such a change because there's no A/B testing (launch campaign in A city, but not in B city), but I don't think that was ever an option when you're dealing with such an epidemic. Like GP said, this is a book review, not a scholarly article. It doesn't have citations because book reviews rarely do. It is reasonable to expect a book to have those citations, and presumably this book does. > catered to a peak of appx. 0.02% of the population I'm not sure if you understand that sex workers make up a disproportionate share of the population that has sex with multiple people, at least in India. Not only that, the prevalence of condom usage among sex workers (and the population in general) was low at that time. This led to a high share of sex workers suffering from HIV and then transmitting that to folks who would in turn transmit it to their long term partners. Of course a lot of money was spent on campaigns for the general population too ("Puli Raja ki Aids vastunda?"), but it made a lot of sense to target this program at sex workers.
    - dragonsngoblins 8y ago
      > I'm not sure if you understand that sex workers make up a disproportionate share of the population that has sex with multiple people, at least in India Surely you mean sex workers and their clients right?
- ternaryoperator 8y ago
  In the era of fake news, it's crucial to go oneself to original sources. Most reputable authors/media now embed links in articles. When reading the original sources, I very frequently come to different opinions than the writer does in the article.
  - somebadguy 8y ago
    Who gives a shit about your process. Off topic af. Idiot
mhsabbagh 8y ago
Am I the only one who's extremely pissed off by the subtitle? > Beating Aids is India’s greatest public health achievement. A new book says it wouldn’t have happened without women Replace this with "it wouldn't have happened without men" and you would feel how ridiculous this subtitle is.
- wjnc 8y ago
  The thing is - if the premise is true that sex workers had an active role in preventing aids, then it's pretty easy to see that sex workers are predominantly low-status women and hence that their role and status make this a more extraordinary achievement.
  - dotancohen 8y ago
    The fine article mentions that gays, transgenders, and IV drug users were involved as well.
    - thebooktocome 8y ago
      "Transgender" is an adjective, not a noun. Try "trans people" instead.
      - pritambaral 8y ago
        Calling a transgender person "a transgender" and a group of transgender people "transgenders" is similar to calling an Indian person "an Indian" and a group of Indian people "Indians".
        noobiemcfoob 8y ago
        I've yet to see any rule on such language apply across all LBGTQ populations without issue. Don't speak with such authority on issues which has no authority.
        brozaman 8y ago
GreenToad5 8y ago
Prevented? They were the ones causing it. How about if they didn't exist in the first place? What could be more degrading to women and hurt equality and respect in a society then women selling their bodies?
- fouc 8y ago
  How about if men that paid for access to their bodies didn't exist? What's more degrading than that?
- sctb 8y ago
  This comment comes nowhere near the standard of substantiveness and civility for this site, so please don't post like it again. We're here for thoughtful discussion grounded in our shared reality—a reality in which other people are not hypothetical. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - GreenToad5 8y ago
    Sad that you are serious. You actually think that it is a good thing that prostitution exists, and someone disagreeing lacks civility? I'd hate to think what your ideal world would look like. Let me guess, you think that the existence of pornography is healthy and beneficial as well and advances women's equality in society? How about the actual women being filmed? does it promote their sense of accomplishment and respect as individuals to have millions of perverts watch them being degraded? I'd say YOU lack basic human respect (especially toward women). If you think prostitution is a good thing for society. It most certainly should not exist.

123 points by sonabinu 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

While I applaud the success of this program, this specific article is a good reminder of why it’s important to read critically. > The programme, which cost $375m (£297m), is credited with an important role in the subsequent decline in India’s HIV status. Why passive voice here? What authority credited the organization’s work in this way? On a closer read, it becomes obvious that there are no primary or secondary sources quoted except the author of this book and anecdotes presented therein; essentially, this is no more than a book review. Is there a larger story here? Are there any suggestions or criticisms that suggest this may not be an optimal approach? As submarines [0] go, this is a pretty harmless and feel-good one. But keep an eye out for articles with similar structure that seek to shape your opinions. [0] http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html

jrumbut 8y ago
It would be of tremendous benefit (and of course an opportunity for appropriate praise) to learn who coughed up a pretty chunk of money to help people who aren't very popular. As far as I can tell it is primarily the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation: https://www.gatesfoundation.org/Media-Center/Press-Releases/2009/07/Avahan-AIDS-Initiative-Commitment-Increased-to-$338-Million https://www.gatesfoundation.org/Media-Center/Press-Releases/...
- mirimir 8y ago
  Thanks. And there's an interesting juxtaposition with another front-page submission. From this article: > Alexander, 64, was born into India’s elite. His father, PC Alexander, was principal secretary to Indira Gandhi. In leaving his career as senior director in the India office of McKinsey & Company to join the campaign to stop the spread of HIV, Alexander swapped a life of plush boardrooms and fine dining with CEOs for sitting on mud floors with sex workers, gay and transgender people and intravenous drug users. In short, a world of which he had little knowledge. The other one criticizes McKinsey & Company: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18691413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18691413
pjg 8y ago
This does feel like poorly researched self-aggrandizing article. It starts of by "In 2002, a major report predicted an Aids catastrophe in India" - but offers no citation. Which report and who authored it based on what data ? Again while the effort expended is commendable I find it hard to believe that this program which by it's own admission catered to a peak of appx. 0.02% of the population single handedly prevented an Aids epidemic
- _jgdh 8y ago
  Having lived in India at the time, I know that it was a disaster waiting to happen. It's hard to measure the impact of such a change because there's no A/B testing (launch campaign in A city, but not in B city), but I don't think that was ever an option when you're dealing with such an epidemic. Like GP said, this is a book review, not a scholarly article. It doesn't have citations because book reviews rarely do. It is reasonable to expect a book to have those citations, and presumably this book does. > catered to a peak of appx. 0.02% of the population I'm not sure if you understand that sex workers make up a disproportionate share of the population that has sex with multiple people, at least in India. Not only that, the prevalence of condom usage among sex workers (and the population in general) was low at that time. This led to a high share of sex workers suffering from HIV and then transmitting that to folks who would in turn transmit it to their long term partners. Of course a lot of money was spent on campaigns for the general population too ("Puli Raja ki Aids vastunda?"), but it made a lot of sense to target this program at sex workers.
  - dragonsngoblins 8y ago
    > I'm not sure if you understand that sex workers make up a disproportionate share of the population that has sex with multiple people, at least in India Surely you mean sex workers and their clients right?
ternaryoperator 8y ago
In the era of fake news, it's crucial to go oneself to original sources. Most reputable authors/media now embed links in articles. When reading the original sources, I very frequently come to different opinions than the writer does in the article.
- somebadguy 8y ago
  Who gives a shit about your process. Off topic af. Idiot

mhsabbagh 8y ago

Am I the only one who's extremely pissed off by the subtitle? > Beating Aids is India’s greatest public health achievement. A new book says it wouldn’t have happened without women Replace this with "it wouldn't have happened without men" and you would feel how ridiculous this subtitle is.

wjnc 8y ago
The thing is - if the premise is true that sex workers had an active role in preventing aids, then it's pretty easy to see that sex workers are predominantly low-status women and hence that their role and status make this a more extraordinary achievement.
- dotancohen 8y ago
  The fine article mentions that gays, transgenders, and IV drug users were involved as well.
  - thebooktocome 8y ago
    "Transgender" is an adjective, not a noun. Try "trans people" instead.
    - pritambaral 8y ago
      Calling a transgender person "a transgender" and a group of transgender people "transgenders" is similar to calling an Indian person "an Indian" and a group of Indian people "Indians".
      - noobiemcfoob 8y ago
        I've yet to see any rule on such language apply across all LBGTQ populations without issue. Don't speak with such authority on issues which has no authority.
      - brozaman 8y ago

GreenToad5 8y ago

Prevented? They were the ones causing it. How about if they didn't exist in the first place? What could be more degrading to women and hurt equality and respect in a society then women selling their bodies?

fouc 8y ago
How about if men that paid for access to their bodies didn't exist? What's more degrading than that?
sctb 8y ago
This comment comes nowhere near the standard of substantiveness and civility for this site, so please don't post like it again. We're here for thoughtful discussion grounded in our shared reality—a reality in which other people are not hypothetical. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- GreenToad5 8y ago
  Sad that you are serious. You actually think that it is a good thing that prostitution exists, and someone disagreeing lacks civility? I'd hate to think what your ideal world would look like. Let me guess, you think that the existence of pornography is healthy and beneficial as well and advances women's equality in society? How about the actual women being filmed? does it promote their sense of accomplishment and respect as individuals to have millions of perverts watch them being degraded? I'd say YOU lack basic human respect (especially toward women). If you think prostitution is a good thing for society. It most certainly should not exist.