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China has had 4 or 5 revolutions (depending on whether you want to count the Cultural Revolution; it was perhaps an anti-revolution where while revolutions norm

by PakG1 8y ago

China has had 4 or 5 revolutions (depending on whether you want to count the Cultural Revolution; it was perhaps an anti-revolution where while revolutions normally attempt to overthrow the government, the cultural revolution attempted to maintain the government's power) in the last century. There are few countries in the world that can say they've gone through five revolutions within the last century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Revolution I believe it has a long history of unrest in the modern era compared to all large countries (measured by population) out there. The Chinese government knows their own history and people well, and I believe they are managing the risk with a serious mindset. Their methods may be up for debate, but they're not of the mindset that there's no risk.

Emma_Goldman 8y ago
I don't think this is the best way of looking at things. China is virtually a continent unto itself. It's a huge and fractous territory. It is little surprise that when the empire fell at the beginning of the 20th century after 4000 years, in the most tumultuous period of world history, that it went through a long phase of war and revolution. It was divided among the West's great powers, repeatedly invaded by a rising Japan, hit by successive ideological waves of nationalism and communism - and had to navigate being the third cog of the Cold War. I don't it's helpful to chalk up the instability of China during this period to some 'essential' characteristic of China; it is not naturally unstable or violent - any country that endured what it has would be unstable and violent.
- repolfx 8y ago
  But you could paint such a dramatic story for many parts of the world. At the start of the 20th century the UK controlled so much of the world they said the sun never sets on the British Empire. It led the industrialisation of the planet, lost millions of men to the trenches of the first world war, then was nearly wiped out and turned into a slave state by Hitler before successfully liberating Europe with its allies. It went through enormous social turmoil in the middle of the 20th century: socialist governments and ultra-militant unions repeatedly damaged its economy so badly that by the end of the 1970s it was significantly worse off economically than Germany - a country it had flattened in world war just 40 years earlier, and which had then been split in half by the Soviets. Professional and well armed terrorists repeatedly attacked the government, in one case almost managing to assassinate the Prime Minister [1]. That all sounds like a much more traumatic modern history than China's. Despite that there has never been a revolution in the UK. The closest you can find is probably the English Civil War in the mid 1600s, which ended with the king being invited back to become King again after the revolutionaries turned out to suck more than he did. So I don't think we can just write off China's history or concerns of its leadership by saying it's merely large, and not naturally unstable or violent. For whatever reason China does seem to have gone through far more revolutions than other countries have done despite the apparent lack of external events that could have triggered such instability. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton_hotel_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton_hotel_bombing
  - Emma_Goldman 8y ago
    "That all sounds like a much more traumatic modern history than China's." That is so far off the mark. China was turned into a tributary state by the Western powers. It was repeatedly - successfully - invaded by Japan. Tens of millions died in the fires of civil war and revolution. It industrialised within a span of 50 years. It was hit successively by waves of nationalism, communism, and capitalism in a single century. Nothing compares to ANY of that in the UK's recent history. The UK was one of the world's great powers at the start of the twentieth century. It drew men, wealth and geopolitical advantage from its empire. It enjoyed the sympathy of Canada and the United States - already far and away the most powerful state in the world. It fought into two world wars, yes, but that did not tear at the fabric of Britain - it never suffered a land invasion, or the realistic prospect of one. Even if Germany had won the air-battle, Britain's navy would always have precluded the possibility of a German armada crossing the channel. It was not turned into a vassal state by a strange and more powerful civilization. It did not undergo revolution. There were not major ideological explosions. The same political system and governing class stayed in place. Britain had the advantage of industrialising first, in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth century. The modern history of the UK is exceptional for being so stable. "Socialist governments and ultra-militant unions". The Labour Party was Keynesian in economics, social democratic in politics, supported NATO and trident and yoked itself to America in the Cold War, and was hardly the direct cause of the crisis of the 1970s - a crisis, by the way, that was general to the West. Unions are, almost by definition, on the soft side of the socialist spectrum - certainly in the context of socialism in the 20th century - hence Lenin's quip about 'trade union consciousness'.
    - repolfx 8y ago
      I guess my point wasn't specific to the UK, but rather that quite a few countries have had dramatic and society-redefining events happen to them without experiencing a large number of revolutions as a consequence. So we can't say that China's revolutionary past is an obvious consequence of anything in particular that happened to it. With respect to which country has had more drama in the 20th century, I'm not sure there's a scale that can be applied to compare them - to me it seems both countries have been through a lot. And that's what I'm getting at. Clearly, experiencing war, invasion or very real threat of invasion (Hitler was trying his best to destroy the navy!) and rapid industrialisation is not by itself sufficient to lead to revolution. There may be something else at work beyond mere events, perhaps a cultural aspect. The British political parties of the 50s and 60s were hardly Keynesian except in the sense that they liked spending money, and no the crisis of the 1970s wasn't "general to the west". The USA was busy putting a man on the moon in this era, the German economy was outstripping the UK's quite significantly. The UK had to go to the IMF for a bailout its economy was so sick. The cause was pretty clearly and directly militant socialism - once Thatcher got the unions under control and liberalised the economy, the UK caught up with its erstwhile foe and was no longer the 'sick man of Europe'. There was a lot for Thatcher to do because at the time she came to power the British government owned huge quantities of ailing industries, including things like hotel chains and removal companies. Not so dissimilar to China's model where so much industry is state owned.
- PakG1 8y ago
  I don't believe it's impossible for you to be correct and for the Chinese government to still be seriously concerned about revolution risk. Whatever the reasons are, it is what it is. FWIW, I do agree with all your points too. A tour through their national history museum in Xian shows how proud they are that Mao was able to finally set China on its own feet on the global stage such that it no longer would be forced to be a vassal state in the future. It opened my mind about why and how the Chinese government creates and implements its foreign policy. It never again wants to be a vassal state, and everything is seen through that lens. But just as they are worried about the threats from without, they are also worried about the threats from within. This is what I see in their domestic policies.

by PakG1 8y ago

Emma_Goldman 8y ago

I don't think this is the best way of looking at things. China is virtually a continent unto itself. It's a huge and fractous territory. It is little surprise that when the empire fell at the beginning of the 20th century after 4000 years, in the most tumultuous period of world history, that it went through a long phase of war and revolution. It was divided among the West's great powers, repeatedly invaded by a rising Japan, hit by successive ideological waves of nationalism and communism - and had to navigate being the third cog of the Cold War. I don't it's helpful to chalk up the instability of China during this period to some 'essential' characteristic of China; it is not naturally unstable or violent - any country that endured what it has would be unstable and violent.

repolfx 8y ago
But you could paint such a dramatic story for many parts of the world. At the start of the 20th century the UK controlled so much of the world they said the sun never sets on the British Empire. It led the industrialisation of the planet, lost millions of men to the trenches of the first world war, then was nearly wiped out and turned into a slave state by Hitler before successfully liberating Europe with its allies. It went through enormous social turmoil in the middle of the 20th century: socialist governments and ultra-militant unions repeatedly damaged its economy so badly that by the end of the 1970s it was significantly worse off economically than Germany - a country it had flattened in world war just 40 years earlier, and which had then been split in half by the Soviets. Professional and well armed terrorists repeatedly attacked the government, in one case almost managing to assassinate the Prime Minister [1]. That all sounds like a much more traumatic modern history than China's. Despite that there has never been a revolution in the UK. The closest you can find is probably the English Civil War in the mid 1600s, which ended with the king being invited back to become King again after the revolutionaries turned out to suck more than he did. So I don't think we can just write off China's history or concerns of its leadership by saying it's merely large, and not naturally unstable or violent. For whatever reason China does seem to have gone through far more revolutions than other countries have done despite the apparent lack of external events that could have triggered such instability. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton_hotel_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton_hotel_bombing
- Emma_Goldman 8y ago
  "That all sounds like a much more traumatic modern history than China's." That is so far off the mark. China was turned into a tributary state by the Western powers. It was repeatedly - successfully - invaded by Japan. Tens of millions died in the fires of civil war and revolution. It industrialised within a span of 50 years. It was hit successively by waves of nationalism, communism, and capitalism in a single century. Nothing compares to ANY of that in the UK's recent history. The UK was one of the world's great powers at the start of the twentieth century. It drew men, wealth and geopolitical advantage from its empire. It enjoyed the sympathy of Canada and the United States - already far and away the most powerful state in the world. It fought into two world wars, yes, but that did not tear at the fabric of Britain - it never suffered a land invasion, or the realistic prospect of one. Even if Germany had won the air-battle, Britain's navy would always have precluded the possibility of a German armada crossing the channel. It was not turned into a vassal state by a strange and more powerful civilization. It did not undergo revolution. There were not major ideological explosions. The same political system and governing class stayed in place. Britain had the advantage of industrialising first, in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth century. The modern history of the UK is exceptional for being so stable. "Socialist governments and ultra-militant unions". The Labour Party was Keynesian in economics, social democratic in politics, supported NATO and trident and yoked itself to America in the Cold War, and was hardly the direct cause of the crisis of the 1970s - a crisis, by the way, that was general to the West. Unions are, almost by definition, on the soft side of the socialist spectrum - certainly in the context of socialism in the 20th century - hence Lenin's quip about 'trade union consciousness'.
  - repolfx 8y ago
    I guess my point wasn't specific to the UK, but rather that quite a few countries have had dramatic and society-redefining events happen to them without experiencing a large number of revolutions as a consequence. So we can't say that China's revolutionary past is an obvious consequence of anything in particular that happened to it. With respect to which country has had more drama in the 20th century, I'm not sure there's a scale that can be applied to compare them - to me it seems both countries have been through a lot. And that's what I'm getting at. Clearly, experiencing war, invasion or very real threat of invasion (Hitler was trying his best to destroy the navy!) and rapid industrialisation is not by itself sufficient to lead to revolution. There may be something else at work beyond mere events, perhaps a cultural aspect. The British political parties of the 50s and 60s were hardly Keynesian except in the sense that they liked spending money, and no the crisis of the 1970s wasn't "general to the west". The USA was busy putting a man on the moon in this era, the German economy was outstripping the UK's quite significantly. The UK had to go to the IMF for a bailout its economy was so sick. The cause was pretty clearly and directly militant socialism - once Thatcher got the unions under control and liberalised the economy, the UK caught up with its erstwhile foe and was no longer the 'sick man of Europe'. There was a lot for Thatcher to do because at the time she came to power the British government owned huge quantities of ailing industries, including things like hotel chains and removal companies. Not so dissimilar to China's model where so much industry is state owned.
PakG1 8y ago
I don't believe it's impossible for you to be correct and for the Chinese government to still be seriously concerned about revolution risk. Whatever the reasons are, it is what it is. FWIW, I do agree with all your points too. A tour through their national history museum in Xian shows how proud they are that Mao was able to finally set China on its own feet on the global stage such that it no longer would be forced to be a vassal state in the future. It opened my mind about why and how the Chinese government creates and implements its foreign policy. It never again wants to be a vassal state, and everything is seen through that lens. But just as they are worried about the threats from without, they are also worried about the threats from within. This is what I see in their domestic policies.