4 ms·

Yeah they shouldn't follow that history. The US also had slavery.

by mruniverse 8y ago

vkou 8y ago
Great, so now that you're at the top, you want to pull the ladder up?
- mruniverse 8y ago
  Are we talking the slavery ladder?
  - vkou 8y ago
    I'm talking about all the other 'unfair' trade practices that have been cited. If you don't want the developing world to follow in the West's footsteps, perhaps we should share some of our wealth with them? Would that be a more palpable alternative? Earlier today, a study was posted on HN about how the British Empire plundered ~$50T (inflation-adjusted) of wealth from India over it's colonial history. If you want to even the playing field with the developing world, we have a lot of reparations to look forward to.
    - mruniverse 8y ago
      I think reparations are the way to go.
    - henrikschroder 8y ago
      > If you don't want the developing world to follow in the West's footsteps, perhaps we should share some of our wealth with them? We are, it's called the global economy, and it has performed a wealth transfer of unprecedented scale these last decades. > we have a lot of reparations to look forward to. Colonial reparations are complete crock, because they are based on counterfactual history speculations, and there are absolutely no concrete limits on those. The Roman empire obviously plundered the British isles for inflation-adjusted astronomical amounts during its colonial history, should modern-day Italians pay reparations to England? It's absurd.
      - mc32 8y ago
        Arguably, had the Romans not invaded and expanded, much of the Mediterranean and the rest of Europe would have remained 'barbarian' for quite a while. They arguably brought civilization with them into the far-reaches of Europe (obviously at a great toll to the local populations)..
        henrikschroder 8y ago
        Arguably, the British brought a lot of things with them to India as well, infrastructure, medicine, industry, language. All these things benefit Indians living today, and many millions of Indians living today wouldn't be alive if the course of history hadn't been changed. How do you put a value on that? Also, many Indians were killed resisting the colonial invasion, and their descendants are not living today as a result, but would have if the course of history hadn't changed. How do you put a value on that? You can twist yourself silly arguing these things back and forth, because there are no physical limits. There are no principles to fall back on, there's only human imagination, you're free to dream up whatever pricetag you want on them. And that is why colonial reparations are ridiculous.
        mruniverse 8y ago
        You can start the negotiations. If things are ridiculous, bring them back to earth.
        yesforwhat 8y ago
        "Your grandfather's grandfather owes me money" Where do you go from there, exactly?
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        vkou 8y ago
        Well, African Americans were enslaved, but were also taught valuable skills in cotton agriculture. Having carefully weighed the pros and cons of the two, we've concluded that slavery in the United States was a net wash, and, if we were to repeat the experiment again, slaveowners should not owe their slaves any reparations. > infrastructure Infrastructure that was paid for, and built by the people of India. > medicine Then why did life expectancy in British India go down during the colonial period? And why were millions of people dying in famines, all the while British India was a net exporter of food, to the rest of the empire? > industry How did countries that did not get colonised ever manage to industrialize? > language What, did Indians communicate with eachother through chest-thumping, and grunts, before someone had the bright idea of teaching them how to speak English? Christ on crutches... This reads a bit like satire.
- munificent 8y ago
  If "pulling the ladder up" includes things like "not allowing the world climate to be destroyed" or "preventing disregarding human rights violations and worker quality of life" then, yeah, probably. Giving each country a fair shot at developing even if they didn't happen to get on that ramp at the same time as some Western countries is a good goal. At the same time, that's not such a vital principle that we should sacrifice other moral or pragmatic imperatives to get it. China may have gotten a late start, but that doesn't give them the right to ignore everything we've learned since then about a country's obligations to its people and the world.
  - dingoegret 8y ago
    Excellent excellent. I take it then the wealthy western countries are going to be sharing their wealth then, yes?
HumanDrivenDev 8y ago
The US also had slavery. Are you under the impression that China didn't?
- mruniverse 8y ago
  I was and I stand corrected. I was trying to address the idea that since the US did bad things in the past, it's ok for other nations to do them too.
  - dingoegret 8y ago
    No it's not okay but the point is don't be a hypocrite.

Yeah they shouldn't follow that history. The US also had slavery.

vkou 8y ago

Great, so now that you're at the top, you want to pull the ladder up?

mruniverse 8y ago
Are we talking the slavery ladder?
- vkou 8y ago
  I'm talking about all the other 'unfair' trade practices that have been cited. If you don't want the developing world to follow in the West's footsteps, perhaps we should share some of our wealth with them? Would that be a more palpable alternative? Earlier today, a study was posted on HN about how the British Empire plundered ~$50T (inflation-adjusted) of wealth from India over it's colonial history. If you want to even the playing field with the developing world, we have a lot of reparations to look forward to.
  - mruniverse 8y ago
    I think reparations are the way to go.
  - henrikschroder 8y ago
    > If you don't want the developing world to follow in the West's footsteps, perhaps we should share some of our wealth with them? We are, it's called the global economy, and it has performed a wealth transfer of unprecedented scale these last decades. > we have a lot of reparations to look forward to. Colonial reparations are complete crock, because they are based on counterfactual history speculations, and there are absolutely no concrete limits on those. The Roman empire obviously plundered the British isles for inflation-adjusted astronomical amounts during its colonial history, should modern-day Italians pay reparations to England? It's absurd.
    - mc32 8y ago
      Arguably, had the Romans not invaded and expanded, much of the Mediterranean and the rest of Europe would have remained 'barbarian' for quite a while. They arguably brought civilization with them into the far-reaches of Europe (obviously at a great toll to the local populations)..
      - henrikschroder 8y ago
        Arguably, the British brought a lot of things with them to India as well, infrastructure, medicine, industry, language. All these things benefit Indians living today, and many millions of Indians living today wouldn't be alive if the course of history hadn't been changed. How do you put a value on that? Also, many Indians were killed resisting the colonial invasion, and their descendants are not living today as a result, but would have if the course of history hadn't changed. How do you put a value on that? You can twist yourself silly arguing these things back and forth, because there are no physical limits. There are no principles to fall back on, there's only human imagination, you're free to dream up whatever pricetag you want on them. And that is why colonial reparations are ridiculous.
        mruniverse 8y ago
        You can start the negotiations. If things are ridiculous, bring them back to earth.
        yesforwhat 8y ago
        "Your grandfather's grandfather owes me money" Where do you go from there, exactly?
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        vkou 8y ago
        Well, African Americans were enslaved, but were also taught valuable skills in cotton agriculture. Having carefully weighed the pros and cons of the two, we've concluded that slavery in the United States was a net wash, and, if we were to repeat the experiment again, slaveowners should not owe their slaves any reparations. > infrastructure Infrastructure that was paid for, and built by the people of India. > medicine Then why did life expectancy in British India go down during the colonial period? And why were millions of people dying in famines, all the while British India was a net exporter of food, to the rest of the empire? > industry How did countries that did not get colonised ever manage to industrialize? > language What, did Indians communicate with eachother through chest-thumping, and grunts, before someone had the bright idea of teaching them how to speak English? Christ on crutches... This reads a bit like satire.
munificent 8y ago
If "pulling the ladder up" includes things like "not allowing the world climate to be destroyed" or "preventing disregarding human rights violations and worker quality of life" then, yeah, probably. Giving each country a fair shot at developing even if they didn't happen to get on that ramp at the same time as some Western countries is a good goal. At the same time, that's not such a vital principle that we should sacrifice other moral or pragmatic imperatives to get it. China may have gotten a late start, but that doesn't give them the right to ignore everything we've learned since then about a country's obligations to its people and the world.
- dingoegret 8y ago
  Excellent excellent. I take it then the wealthy western countries are going to be sharing their wealth then, yes?

HumanDrivenDev 8y ago

The US also had slavery. Are you under the impression that China didn't?

mruniverse 8y ago
I was and I stand corrected. I was trying to address the idea that since the US did bad things in the past, it's ok for other nations to do them too.
- dingoegret 8y ago
  No it's not okay but the point is don't be a hypocrite.