4 ms·

Can you give us the more nuanced view, particularly as it applies to America, a place with a lot of existing diversity and a pretty mixed history with regard to

Can you give us the more nuanced view, particularly as it applies to America, a place with a lot of existing diversity and a pretty mixed history with regard to how minorities have been treated? What’s the nuanced case for why Americans shouldn’t care that much about “diversity”?

badpun 8y ago
I feel that the “caring about diversity” is a state- and media-run campaign with a goal to decrease some of the deep-rooted racism that permeates sections of the US’s society. Therefore, for the child upbringing case, as long as a parent is not a racist and is not rasing his children to be one, the crude corrective action of “diversity yay!” is not really necessary. That’s why Polish society is ok despite not caring about diversity - we’re just not very racist in the first place (and don’t get me wrong, it’s not due to some inherent moral superiority - we are just not exposed to races other than ours, so it pretty hard/weird to be a racist).
- ryanwaggoner 8y ago
  Maybe it’s not that Poland is not racist, but more that you haven’t had the opportunity to prove it until recently: https://m.dw.com/en/poland-racism-on-the-rise/a-36812032 https://m.dw.com/en/poland-racism-on-the-rise/a-36812032 I think any kind of tribalism-oriented bias or skepticism about “the other” is probably something we’re all oriented towards from an evolutionary standpoint. And so getting over that takes “brainwashing”, just like many, many other positive things in society. The concept of equal rights didn’t fall from the sky: we invented it because we thought it’d work better for everyone in the long run. And we have to constantly be reinforcing it or it falls apart.
  - badpun 8y ago
    Regarding the DW article - it’s not really racism (not to mention that these incidents are very rare). Racism is a belief that your race is inherently superior or that the other race is inferior. While it’s probably not an uncommon belief in the US, very few people in Poland believe that. These attacks were about xenophobia - fear of the others - in this case fear that the others will spread terrorism. Of course, it’s an completely unfair generalisation (that people who look Arabic are likely to be terrorists), but not nearly of the caliber of the racist “you’re black, hence you’re just a lesser human being”. Regarding the brainwashing - wouldn’t it be enough to explain to children that racism is just an unscientific, morally abhorrent belief? Why is there a need to push the idea that diversity is beneficial? It’s an unjustified belief which leads to comical conclusions, ex. that a two-person team, consisting of a black and a white mathematician! will be better than a team of two black or two white mathematicians. It feels to me that whoever pushed this agenda went too far. People can feel the weakness in the “diversity is obviously good” claim, which makes them suspicious and sceptical of the whole idea.
    - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
      Yeah, I thoroughly disagree. I’m skeptical of your assessment that Polish people just aren’t racist at all, and I disagree with your splitting hairs between racism and xenophobia. But beyond that, I’m baffled as to how you don’t see that in a discussion of the benefits of living in a diverse culture, xenophobia based on ethnicity being linked to a religion and then unfairly conflated with terrorism to justify mistreatment is the exact kind of problem I’m concerned with. Diversity doesn’t just mean racial diversity, though it appears that Polish people aren’t as comfortable with that either as you’d like to believe. wouldn’t it be enough to explain to children that racism is just an unscientific, morally abhorrent belief If history is any guide, no. Your example about the mathematicians makes me wonder if we’re even talking about the same thing. I don’t want my daughter seeing women mathematicians because I want her to believe their presence will make any team that they’re a part of better (even if true). I want her to see women who are mathematicians so she internalizes the idea that it’s a viable option. The “just tell her it is, even if the world around her tells her the opposite every day” is a recipe for failure. I want her to see it.
- danans 8y ago
  > we are just not exposed to races other than ours, so it pretty hard/weird to be a racist). The US is not mono-racial by any measure, and has a long and troubled history with race relations. So even taking the questionable argument that Poland isn't "very racist" at face value, it's wouldn't be applicable to the US anyway.
  - badpun 8y ago
    The part about Poland was just a tangent to my main point, which was - as long as you’re raising your child to not be a racist, your child is ptobably not losing anything by not being raised in a diverse envirnoment.
    - danans 8y ago
      > as long as you’re raising your child to not be a racist How do you know if you are successfully doing that, if they (or you) never encounter someone of another race?
    - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
      You only do so much raising of your kids. Their friends, their teachers, and the broader culture also have a huge effect.

badpun 8y ago

I feel that the “caring about diversity” is a state- and media-run campaign with a goal to decrease some of the deep-rooted racism that permeates sections of the US’s society. Therefore, for the child upbringing case, as long as a parent is not a racist and is not rasing his children to be one, the crude corrective action of “diversity yay!” is not really necessary. That’s why Polish society is ok despite not caring about diversity - we’re just not very racist in the first place (and don’t get me wrong, it’s not due to some inherent moral superiority - we are just not exposed to races other than ours, so it pretty hard/weird to be a racist).

ryanwaggoner 8y ago
Maybe it’s not that Poland is not racist, but more that you haven’t had the opportunity to prove it until recently: https://m.dw.com/en/poland-racism-on-the-rise/a-36812032 https://m.dw.com/en/poland-racism-on-the-rise/a-36812032 I think any kind of tribalism-oriented bias or skepticism about “the other” is probably something we’re all oriented towards from an evolutionary standpoint. And so getting over that takes “brainwashing”, just like many, many other positive things in society. The concept of equal rights didn’t fall from the sky: we invented it because we thought it’d work better for everyone in the long run. And we have to constantly be reinforcing it or it falls apart.
- badpun 8y ago
  Regarding the DW article - it’s not really racism (not to mention that these incidents are very rare). Racism is a belief that your race is inherently superior or that the other race is inferior. While it’s probably not an uncommon belief in the US, very few people in Poland believe that. These attacks were about xenophobia - fear of the others - in this case fear that the others will spread terrorism. Of course, it’s an completely unfair generalisation (that people who look Arabic are likely to be terrorists), but not nearly of the caliber of the racist “you’re black, hence you’re just a lesser human being”. Regarding the brainwashing - wouldn’t it be enough to explain to children that racism is just an unscientific, morally abhorrent belief? Why is there a need to push the idea that diversity is beneficial? It’s an unjustified belief which leads to comical conclusions, ex. that a two-person team, consisting of a black and a white mathematician! will be better than a team of two black or two white mathematicians. It feels to me that whoever pushed this agenda went too far. People can feel the weakness in the “diversity is obviously good” claim, which makes them suspicious and sceptical of the whole idea.
  - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
    Yeah, I thoroughly disagree. I’m skeptical of your assessment that Polish people just aren’t racist at all, and I disagree with your splitting hairs between racism and xenophobia. But beyond that, I’m baffled as to how you don’t see that in a discussion of the benefits of living in a diverse culture, xenophobia based on ethnicity being linked to a religion and then unfairly conflated with terrorism to justify mistreatment is the exact kind of problem I’m concerned with. Diversity doesn’t just mean racial diversity, though it appears that Polish people aren’t as comfortable with that either as you’d like to believe. wouldn’t it be enough to explain to children that racism is just an unscientific, morally abhorrent belief If history is any guide, no. Your example about the mathematicians makes me wonder if we’re even talking about the same thing. I don’t want my daughter seeing women mathematicians because I want her to believe their presence will make any team that they’re a part of better (even if true). I want her to see women who are mathematicians so she internalizes the idea that it’s a viable option. The “just tell her it is, even if the world around her tells her the opposite every day” is a recipe for failure. I want her to see it.
danans 8y ago
> we are just not exposed to races other than ours, so it pretty hard/weird to be a racist). The US is not mono-racial by any measure, and has a long and troubled history with race relations. So even taking the questionable argument that Poland isn't "very racist" at face value, it's wouldn't be applicable to the US anyway.
- badpun 8y ago
  The part about Poland was just a tangent to my main point, which was - as long as you’re raising your child to not be a racist, your child is ptobably not losing anything by not being raised in a diverse envirnoment.
  - danans 8y ago
    > as long as you’re raising your child to not be a racist How do you know if you are successfully doing that, if they (or you) never encounter someone of another race?
  - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
    You only do so much raising of your kids. Their friends, their teachers, and the broader culture also have a huge effect.