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As someone coming from Poland, a country that’s pretty much 100% white and Polish, I don’t feel that the lack of “diversity” has negatively impacted my developm

by badpun 8y ago

As someone coming from Poland, a country that’s pretty much 100% white and Polish, I don’t feel that the lack of “diversity” has negatively impacted my development. It seems to me that people in the US have been brainwashed (in schools, by media etc.) into believing that diversity is always good and lack of diversity is always bad, while in reality it’s not that simple.

danans 8y ago
> I don’t feel that the lack of “diversity” has negatively impacted my development They said they want diversity for their children. That has nothing to do with how your environment impacted you. People are allowed to have preferences so long as in the process of acting on them, they don't trample on others' rights.
- badpun 8y ago
  That’s... obvious? Of course people have a right to their subjective opinions and preferences. What I’m interested in though is the objective reality of this matter, i.e. whether or not diversity is beneficial for child’s development.
  - danans 8y ago
    > What I’m interested in though is the objective reality of this matter, i.e. whether or not diversity is beneficial for child’s development. There isn't an objective reality. Depending on what you personally value, diversity could be a cost, benefit, or neutral for your children. You may not even know the results until much later, and even then it will be hard to discern the causal factors, though you may try to posit them. It could also just come down to "I like living in a diverse environment because it's more interesting for me, and I'm only going to live once".
    - badpun 8y ago
      There certainly is an objective reality. It may be very hard to determine what it is, but it nevertheless exists. In this case, as long as you define developmental goals (ex. the child develops into kind, responsible, emotionally stable adult etc.), the policies/circumstances, such as being raised in a diverse environment, being allowed to watch TV, studying a lot, always wearing black socks etc. will or will not have impact (positive or negative) on those goals.
      - danans 8y ago
        > There certainly is an objective reality An objective reality with child-rearing? Apart from obvious things like not ignoring or abusing a child, there isn't one in my experience, but as they say ... whatever works for you. > the policies/circumstances, such as being raised in a diverse environment, being allowed to watch TV, studying a lot, always wearing black socks etc. will or will not have impact (positive or negative) on those goals. At best, perhaps raising kids in diverse environments allows them to be resilient in diverse environments as adults. At worst, it could cause them to harbor resentments against others nearby who are different than them. You can find kind, responsible, emotionally stable adults who were raised in both diverse and non-diverse environments. And you can find the opposite in both types of environments.
ryanwaggoner 8y ago
Can you give us the more nuanced view, particularly as it applies to America, a place with a lot of existing diversity and a pretty mixed history with regard to how minorities have been treated? What’s the nuanced case for why Americans shouldn’t care that much about “diversity”?
- badpun 8y ago
  I feel that the “caring about diversity” is a state- and media-run campaign with a goal to decrease some of the deep-rooted racism that permeates sections of the US’s society. Therefore, for the child upbringing case, as long as a parent is not a racist and is not rasing his children to be one, the crude corrective action of “diversity yay!” is not really necessary. That’s why Polish society is ok despite not caring about diversity - we’re just not very racist in the first place (and don’t get me wrong, it’s not due to some inherent moral superiority - we are just not exposed to races other than ours, so it pretty hard/weird to be a racist).
  - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
    Maybe it’s not that Poland is not racist, but more that you haven’t had the opportunity to prove it until recently: https://m.dw.com/en/poland-racism-on-the-rise/a-36812032 https://m.dw.com/en/poland-racism-on-the-rise/a-36812032 I think any kind of tribalism-oriented bias or skepticism about “the other” is probably something we’re all oriented towards from an evolutionary standpoint. And so getting over that takes “brainwashing”, just like many, many other positive things in society. The concept of equal rights didn’t fall from the sky: we invented it because we thought it’d work better for everyone in the long run. And we have to constantly be reinforcing it or it falls apart.
    - badpun 8y ago
      Regarding the DW article - it’s not really racism (not to mention that these incidents are very rare). Racism is a belief that your race is inherently superior or that the other race is inferior. While it’s probably not an uncommon belief in the US, very few people in Poland believe that. These attacks were about xenophobia - fear of the others - in this case fear that the others will spread terrorism. Of course, it’s an completely unfair generalisation (that people who look Arabic are likely to be terrorists), but not nearly of the caliber of the racist “you’re black, hence you’re just a lesser human being”. Regarding the brainwashing - wouldn’t it be enough to explain to children that racism is just an unscientific, morally abhorrent belief? Why is there a need to push the idea that diversity is beneficial? It’s an unjustified belief which leads to comical conclusions, ex. that a two-person team, consisting of a black and a white mathematician! will be better than a team of two black or two white mathematicians. It feels to me that whoever pushed this agenda went too far. People can feel the weakness in the “diversity is obviously good” claim, which makes them suspicious and sceptical of the whole idea.
soundwave106 8y ago
It's more the "reaction to diversity" that's the issue, in my opinion. Some areas unfortunately are not terribly friendly to non-white or non-Christian people. This sometimes is reflected in certain laws and may reflect in other cultural ways. This probably is not something any international-oriented company would look positively on, since international companies will have employees from a wide variety of cultures. I remember when one of the consequences of Alabama's 2011 immigration laws was them ticketing or arresting two automobile executives. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/dec/02/alabama-car-boss-immigration-law https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/dec/02/alabama-car-bo...) I thought at the time that was a (sarcasm) great promotion to international corporations of the benefits of putting an office in Alabama. As an atheist I certainly wouldn't move into any very religious area, which unfortunately is a fair bit of rural places. (For examples why, see: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/05/24/atheists-in-the-bible-belt-a-survival-guide/ http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/05/24/atheists-in-the-bib...)
- badpun 8y ago
  That cnn article sure is interesting. Poland is supposedly one of more Christian countries in the world, but nothing even close to the stories from that article (losing job or customers after coming out as an atheist) ever happens here. I wonder how common such incidents are in the US.
  - chrisco255 8y ago
    I grew up in a rural part of Florida, and while I do remember atheism having a stigma about it in high school, it was more of a mild distaste people would share about it (mostly based on predispositions about it). That being said, religion is a Federally protected classification, so no one can fire someone over atheism and not risk a lawsuit in the U.S. Some of these articles are written by people who are as far removed from rural American life as they are from Poland...and I would take such articles with a grain of salt.
pastor_elm 8y ago
>I don’t feel that the lack of “diversity” has negatively impacted my development. Well it certainly has impacted some Poles, considering they can't help but chant 'monkey' when they see a black person[0] [0]https://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/08/sport/football/poland-racism-football-netherlands/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/08/sport/football/poland-rac...
village-idiot 8y ago
Research shows that diverse teams tend to get stuck in group think less, and diverse markets are less prone to bubbles and corrections.
JeremyNT 8y ago
The history of the United States as a Caucasian ethnostate looms large here. When people talk about diversity, what that's code for is essentially "not racist," because the legacy of those explicit laws enforcing white supremacy takes generations to untangle - and diversity of population (and integration) is one of the important ways to slowly grind down the residual attitudes.
lkrubner 8y ago
How do you measure the people you've lost? I love Poland, but it's intolerance has chased away some of its best people. Every LGBQ individual I meet was eager to get out of Poland. Every artist hates Kaczynski. Every intellectual from Poland seems to find it easier to live in London or Paris, rather than Warsaw or Krakow. Poland was the great innovator of Western science when Kopernicus looked at the stars, but Poland was remarkably tolerant at that time. Have you read "Poland Was Shockingly Liberal During The 1400s"? http://www.smashcompany.com/philosophy/poland-was-shockingly-liberal-in-the-1400s http://www.smashcompany.com/philosophy/poland-was-shockingly...

by badpun 8y ago

danans 8y ago

> I don’t feel that the lack of “diversity” has negatively impacted my development They said they want diversity for their children. That has nothing to do with how your environment impacted you. People are allowed to have preferences so long as in the process of acting on them, they don't trample on others' rights.

badpun 8y ago
That’s... obvious? Of course people have a right to their subjective opinions and preferences. What I’m interested in though is the objective reality of this matter, i.e. whether or not diversity is beneficial for child’s development.
- danans 8y ago
  > What I’m interested in though is the objective reality of this matter, i.e. whether or not diversity is beneficial for child’s development. There isn't an objective reality. Depending on what you personally value, diversity could be a cost, benefit, or neutral for your children. You may not even know the results until much later, and even then it will be hard to discern the causal factors, though you may try to posit them. It could also just come down to "I like living in a diverse environment because it's more interesting for me, and I'm only going to live once".
  - badpun 8y ago
    There certainly is an objective reality. It may be very hard to determine what it is, but it nevertheless exists. In this case, as long as you define developmental goals (ex. the child develops into kind, responsible, emotionally stable adult etc.), the policies/circumstances, such as being raised in a diverse environment, being allowed to watch TV, studying a lot, always wearing black socks etc. will or will not have impact (positive or negative) on those goals.
    - danans 8y ago
      > There certainly is an objective reality An objective reality with child-rearing? Apart from obvious things like not ignoring or abusing a child, there isn't one in my experience, but as they say ... whatever works for you. > the policies/circumstances, such as being raised in a diverse environment, being allowed to watch TV, studying a lot, always wearing black socks etc. will or will not have impact (positive or negative) on those goals. At best, perhaps raising kids in diverse environments allows them to be resilient in diverse environments as adults. At worst, it could cause them to harbor resentments against others nearby who are different than them. You can find kind, responsible, emotionally stable adults who were raised in both diverse and non-diverse environments. And you can find the opposite in both types of environments.

ryanwaggoner 8y ago

Can you give us the more nuanced view, particularly as it applies to America, a place with a lot of existing diversity and a pretty mixed history with regard to how minorities have been treated? What’s the nuanced case for why Americans shouldn’t care that much about “diversity”?

badpun 8y ago
I feel that the “caring about diversity” is a state- and media-run campaign with a goal to decrease some of the deep-rooted racism that permeates sections of the US’s society. Therefore, for the child upbringing case, as long as a parent is not a racist and is not rasing his children to be one, the crude corrective action of “diversity yay!” is not really necessary. That’s why Polish society is ok despite not caring about diversity - we’re just not very racist in the first place (and don’t get me wrong, it’s not due to some inherent moral superiority - we are just not exposed to races other than ours, so it pretty hard/weird to be a racist).
- ryanwaggoner 8y ago
  Maybe it’s not that Poland is not racist, but more that you haven’t had the opportunity to prove it until recently: https://m.dw.com/en/poland-racism-on-the-rise/a-36812032 https://m.dw.com/en/poland-racism-on-the-rise/a-36812032 I think any kind of tribalism-oriented bias or skepticism about “the other” is probably something we’re all oriented towards from an evolutionary standpoint. And so getting over that takes “brainwashing”, just like many, many other positive things in society. The concept of equal rights didn’t fall from the sky: we invented it because we thought it’d work better for everyone in the long run. And we have to constantly be reinforcing it or it falls apart.
  - badpun 8y ago
    Regarding the DW article - it’s not really racism (not to mention that these incidents are very rare). Racism is a belief that your race is inherently superior or that the other race is inferior. While it’s probably not an uncommon belief in the US, very few people in Poland believe that. These attacks were about xenophobia - fear of the others - in this case fear that the others will spread terrorism. Of course, it’s an completely unfair generalisation (that people who look Arabic are likely to be terrorists), but not nearly of the caliber of the racist “you’re black, hence you’re just a lesser human being”. Regarding the brainwashing - wouldn’t it be enough to explain to children that racism is just an unscientific, morally abhorrent belief? Why is there a need to push the idea that diversity is beneficial? It’s an unjustified belief which leads to comical conclusions, ex. that a two-person team, consisting of a black and a white mathematician! will be better than a team of two black or two white mathematicians. It feels to me that whoever pushed this agenda went too far. People can feel the weakness in the “diversity is obviously good” claim, which makes them suspicious and sceptical of the whole idea.

soundwave106 8y ago

It's more the "reaction to diversity" that's the issue, in my opinion. Some areas unfortunately are not terribly friendly to non-white or non-Christian people. This sometimes is reflected in certain laws and may reflect in other cultural ways. This probably is not something any international-oriented company would look positively on, since international companies will have employees from a wide variety of cultures. I remember when one of the consequences of Alabama's 2011 immigration laws was them ticketing or arresting two automobile executives. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/dec/02/alabama-car-boss-immigration-law https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/dec/02/alabama-car-bo...) I thought at the time that was a (sarcasm) great promotion to international corporations of the benefits of putting an office in Alabama. As an atheist I certainly wouldn't move into any very religious area, which unfortunately is a fair bit of rural places. (For examples why, see: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/05/24/atheists-in-the-bible-belt-a-survival-guide/ http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/05/24/atheists-in-the-bib...)

badpun 8y ago
That cnn article sure is interesting. Poland is supposedly one of more Christian countries in the world, but nothing even close to the stories from that article (losing job or customers after coming out as an atheist) ever happens here. I wonder how common such incidents are in the US.
- chrisco255 8y ago
  I grew up in a rural part of Florida, and while I do remember atheism having a stigma about it in high school, it was more of a mild distaste people would share about it (mostly based on predispositions about it). That being said, religion is a Federally protected classification, so no one can fire someone over atheism and not risk a lawsuit in the U.S. Some of these articles are written by people who are as far removed from rural American life as they are from Poland...and I would take such articles with a grain of salt.

pastor_elm 8y ago

>I don’t feel that the lack of “diversity” has negatively impacted my development. Well it certainly has impacted some Poles, considering they can't help but chant 'monkey' when they see a black person[0] [0]https://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/08/sport/football/poland-racism-football-netherlands/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/08/sport/football/poland-rac...

village-idiot 8y ago

Research shows that diverse teams tend to get stuck in group think less, and diverse markets are less prone to bubbles and corrections.

JeremyNT 8y ago

The history of the United States as a Caucasian ethnostate looms large here. When people talk about diversity, what that's code for is essentially "not racist," because the legacy of those explicit laws enforcing white supremacy takes generations to untangle - and diversity of population (and integration) is one of the important ways to slowly grind down the residual attitudes.

lkrubner 8y ago

How do you measure the people you've lost? I love Poland, but it's intolerance has chased away some of its best people. Every LGBQ individual I meet was eager to get out of Poland. Every artist hates Kaczynski. Every intellectual from Poland seems to find it easier to live in London or Paris, rather than Warsaw or Krakow. Poland was the great innovator of Western science when Kopernicus looked at the stars, but Poland was remarkably tolerant at that time. Have you read "Poland Was Shockingly Liberal During The 1400s"? http://www.smashcompany.com/philosophy/poland-was-shockingly-liberal-in-the-1400s http://www.smashcompany.com/philosophy/poland-was-shockingly...