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> Does anyone actually still believe that these debts will all someday be repayed? I don't understand why you would ask this question. On the individual level

> Does anyone actually still believe that these debts will all someday be repayed? I don't understand why you would ask this question. On the individual level its obvious that some debts won't be. It happens all the time for a lot of reasons. So I assume you aren't talking about the individual level. But on the macro level zero debt is a very bad idea and unless civilization collapses there will always be debt. Debt itself is a very good thing. Too much, and too little, of a good thing is bad. So in either case all debts being paid off will almost certainly never happen. > Does anyone even believe that the amount of debt will go down In absolute terms due to inflation it always goes up. > (that allows people to have negative amounts of currency) You say this like its a bad thing. Debt isn't a bad thing. Debt allows people to own homes and cars and pay for education and invest in business. Debt means you are optimistic about the future.

joobus 8y ago
This reads like a person with Stockholm syndrome, captured by the Federal Reserve system. Money/currency does not have to be debt based. For a lot of America's history, it was not debt based.
- isoprophlex 8y ago
  People downvoting this comment: please provide reasons for disagreeing. You are not adding to the discussion by silently downvoting.
  - pfranz 8y ago
    I started a reply, but honestly, I just don't feel like it's worth the energy to follow up with the replies I'd get. Probably because of the tone of the response. I don't see debt as all that much different than insurance. Sure, society can get by without it, and you may never need it, but society in general benefits. If I run a business any large expenses would be amortized over the lifetime of that thing. I could pay for it upfront, but that might never happen and if I could it wouldn't be the best use of my resources. Ideally, I'd "pay rent" in order to borrow money upfront, now that I have that machine it's easier to pay back since that fixed cost will benefit me for the next 20 years. That's the scenario where all debt is never paid back. Financial tools, like anything else can be good or bad depending on the circumstances and motivations at play. Payday loans (generally seen as bad) aren't all that different from micro-loans lauded in third-world countries. Let's say there's an older woman who walks out of town to buy goods and carries them back to town every day to sell (arbitrage). If she gets a small loan to buy more goods up front, invest in a wheelbarrow, or a booth at the market she can do more business and more easily pay off that loan benefiting; her, the person offering the loan, the sellers and the buyers--society in general. If she cannot pay back the loan she can get into a debit spiral. There are situations where that is beneficial to the person giving her the loan at the expense of her and the rest of society.
- beokop 8y ago
  This reads like a person with Stockholm syndrome, captured by the crypto hype train. The entire point of money/currency is to have a standard unit of transferable debt!
- aurailious 8y ago
  > For a lot of America's history, it was not debt based. For a lot of America's history we used horses and sailing ships to get around. Are you suggesting we should return to that too? Otherwise this argument is empty.
- hopler 8y ago
  Debt is older than money. Debt created money. You don't need a Federal Reserve to create money, you can make it yourself. If I do work for you, and you can't pay, and you give me an "IOU", that is debt, and if I agree to make that IOU transferable that that is money. The Federal Reserve system is simply one specific kind of money that is only special because the US government accepts it for tax payments and certain other kinds of money at illegal.
- fulafel 8y ago
  It was even more concretely debt based when bank notes were IOUs against gold.
coldtea 8y ago
>Debt allows people to own homes and cars and pay for education and invest in business. Debt means you are optimistic about the future. How about having homes and cars and education without debt? It's not like you need to be in debt to another and to steal from your feature to have nice things...
- bb2018 8y ago
  I honestly do not understand this perspective and would like to be enlightened. The only way a young person could be given a house without owing any debt would be if someone else bought it for them or if the government paid workers to build houses for everyone. However, if the government paid people to build houses without any payments in return the government would be collected the debt which it would then hold. This doesnt reduce any debt globally it just transfers it. Maybe you could argue it is better for the debt to be on government than individuals but that doesnt address how no debt is good. No debt would just mean zero houses.
  - outside1234 8y ago
    Worse, we would end up with the student loan effect, which would mean that houses, like education, would explode in cost since there are no constraints on cost when you can just "charge it".
  - nikanj 8y ago
    Previous generations bought homes in early 20s, and paid off their mortgages in 7-10 years, so by their mid-30s their housing expenses were rather low. And inflation helped with the payments too. Our generation gets 25-year mortgages, and very little help from inflation.
    - sciurus 8y ago
      When were you born, and what country do you live in? As someone born in the 1980s in the USA, I don't think this is true. I believe that the 30 year mortgage has been the standard here since sometime in the mid 20th century.
itry2develop 8y ago
Voiced like a central banker. Of course debt is generally bad, unless you are enslaving the masses to your interest payments on cash you created from nothingness. It drives inflation, which then drives higher need for debt to buy assets reduces incentive to save and the cycle continues until the payments stop being made and it all implodes.
avip 8y ago
I find it difficult to reconcile this POV with environmental concerns. That elusive "debt" is 100% convertible to real resources (land, water). We have more debt because we consume too many things we don't need. How is that good?
- aurailious 8y ago
  Is education something we don't need?
  - avip 8y ago
    Education can be bought for $1.50 in late fees at the public library.
    - hopler 8y ago
      The library was built by debt.
      - bb2018 8y ago
        Perfect reply.
    - asaph 8y ago
      Or you can return your books on time and have it for free.
  - reirob 8y ago
    Education free of charge and accessible to every child, in my opinion, is the greatest achievement in human history. However education for which you need to get into debt is something that I really don't think is a progress. It is still better than no education or education for which you have to join a political party or a religion, but it is actually a step back from free education.
- XorNot 8y ago
  "excessive consumption" based interpretations of environmental policy have done more damage to the cause of environmentalism then anything else.

joobus 8y ago

This reads like a person with Stockholm syndrome, captured by the Federal Reserve system. Money/currency does not have to be debt based. For a lot of America's history, it was not debt based.

isoprophlex 8y ago
People downvoting this comment: please provide reasons for disagreeing. You are not adding to the discussion by silently downvoting.
- pfranz 8y ago
  I started a reply, but honestly, I just don't feel like it's worth the energy to follow up with the replies I'd get. Probably because of the tone of the response. I don't see debt as all that much different than insurance. Sure, society can get by without it, and you may never need it, but society in general benefits. If I run a business any large expenses would be amortized over the lifetime of that thing. I could pay for it upfront, but that might never happen and if I could it wouldn't be the best use of my resources. Ideally, I'd "pay rent" in order to borrow money upfront, now that I have that machine it's easier to pay back since that fixed cost will benefit me for the next 20 years. That's the scenario where all debt is never paid back. Financial tools, like anything else can be good or bad depending on the circumstances and motivations at play. Payday loans (generally seen as bad) aren't all that different from micro-loans lauded in third-world countries. Let's say there's an older woman who walks out of town to buy goods and carries them back to town every day to sell (arbitrage). If she gets a small loan to buy more goods up front, invest in a wheelbarrow, or a booth at the market she can do more business and more easily pay off that loan benefiting; her, the person offering the loan, the sellers and the buyers--society in general. If she cannot pay back the loan she can get into a debit spiral. There are situations where that is beneficial to the person giving her the loan at the expense of her and the rest of society.
beokop 8y ago
This reads like a person with Stockholm syndrome, captured by the crypto hype train. The entire point of money/currency is to have a standard unit of transferable debt!
aurailious 8y ago
> For a lot of America's history, it was not debt based. For a lot of America's history we used horses and sailing ships to get around. Are you suggesting we should return to that too? Otherwise this argument is empty.
hopler 8y ago
Debt is older than money. Debt created money. You don't need a Federal Reserve to create money, you can make it yourself. If I do work for you, and you can't pay, and you give me an "IOU", that is debt, and if I agree to make that IOU transferable that that is money. The Federal Reserve system is simply one specific kind of money that is only special because the US government accepts it for tax payments and certain other kinds of money at illegal.
fulafel 8y ago
It was even more concretely debt based when bank notes were IOUs against gold.

coldtea 8y ago

>Debt allows people to own homes and cars and pay for education and invest in business. Debt means you are optimistic about the future. How about having homes and cars and education without debt? It's not like you need to be in debt to another and to steal from your feature to have nice things...

bb2018 8y ago
I honestly do not understand this perspective and would like to be enlightened. The only way a young person could be given a house without owing any debt would be if someone else bought it for them or if the government paid workers to build houses for everyone. However, if the government paid people to build houses without any payments in return the government would be collected the debt which it would then hold. This doesnt reduce any debt globally it just transfers it. Maybe you could argue it is better for the debt to be on government than individuals but that doesnt address how no debt is good. No debt would just mean zero houses.
- outside1234 8y ago
  Worse, we would end up with the student loan effect, which would mean that houses, like education, would explode in cost since there are no constraints on cost when you can just "charge it".
- nikanj 8y ago
  Previous generations bought homes in early 20s, and paid off their mortgages in 7-10 years, so by their mid-30s their housing expenses were rather low. And inflation helped with the payments too. Our generation gets 25-year mortgages, and very little help from inflation.
  - sciurus 8y ago
    When were you born, and what country do you live in? As someone born in the 1980s in the USA, I don't think this is true. I believe that the 30 year mortgage has been the standard here since sometime in the mid 20th century.

itry2develop 8y ago

Voiced like a central banker. Of course debt is generally bad, unless you are enslaving the masses to your interest payments on cash you created from nothingness. It drives inflation, which then drives higher need for debt to buy assets reduces incentive to save and the cycle continues until the payments stop being made and it all implodes.

avip 8y ago

I find it difficult to reconcile this POV with environmental concerns. That elusive "debt" is 100% convertible to real resources (land, water). We have more debt because we consume too many things we don't need. How is that good?

aurailious 8y ago
Is education something we don't need?
- avip 8y ago
  Education can be bought for $1.50 in late fees at the public library.
  - hopler 8y ago
    The library was built by debt.
    - bb2018 8y ago
      Perfect reply.
  - asaph 8y ago
    Or you can return your books on time and have it for free.
- reirob 8y ago
  Education free of charge and accessible to every child, in my opinion, is the greatest achievement in human history. However education for which you need to get into debt is something that I really don't think is a progress. It is still better than no education or education for which you have to join a political party or a religion, but it is actually a step back from free education.
XorNot 8y ago
"excessive consumption" based interpretations of environmental policy have done more damage to the cause of environmentalism then anything else.