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> at-will employment laws I just don't get how we just can't over turn them politically state by state in State Elections. How is this not a thing? I live in a

> at-will employment laws I just don't get how we just can't over turn them politically state by state in State Elections. How is this not a thing? I live in an At Will State (PA) and it pretty much sucks to have the knowledge I can be fired for any reason and sure I still can sue but I can still lose even though I am 100% in the right.

pjc50 8y ago
There's going to be a lot of money thrown at propaganda to convince voters that requiring employers to treat employees fairly will reduce jobs. And as soon as anyone mentions unions, it's all over. Every (right-of-centre) American knows that they're the only hardworking person in the country and the entire rest of the workforce is lazy good-for-nothings who need the constant threat of firing to achieve anything. /s
- svantana 8y ago
  > as soon as anyone mentions unions, it's all over Isn't there a technical solution to this? Something like an outwardly anonymous social network with "proof" of employment from LinkedIn, where you can pledge to unionize once participation reaches critical mass for your workplace. Yes laws are better, but this could be a decent workaround.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    Too easy to infiltrate, too difficult to enforce participation internally. And you've got to advertise it somehow to the workforce. I don't think it's achievable without outside help and political organisation.
    - TomMarius 8y ago
      What is not achievable? We're talking about collective bargaining, how is that not achievable without outside help and involving the government? People got it working just fine 100 years ago... Of course back then laws were not favoring corporations that much (in my country where it worked then, not the USA).
      - pjc50 8y ago
        Getting collective bargaining started requires assembling the collective - this is a lot harder to do if the employer can just fire anyone seen organising. Traditionally bootstrapping into a situation where union organising could happen safely and peacefully required a period of violence on the picket lines. There used to be quite a lot of this in America: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_union_busting_in_the_United_States#Physical_attacks_against_unions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_union_busting_in_th... These days it's even harder in some ways; the more "virtual" an organisation is, the easier it is for the company to just disband and restart it and the harder it is to picket. It's not clear if the various strikes against Uber by its workers have achieved anything. (someone is downvoting you, but it's not me!)
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    Why would laws be better? I absolutely don't see how any law could be better than something the people did themselves. Comparable - maybe, but a law is usually way more expensive in the long run and not exactly flexible - and if you were from eastern European state you would know how unions work here (they mostly don't).
    - pjc50 8y ago
      Generally in order for unions to exist at all they need a certain amount of protection from reprisals; union organising needs to be a protected activity. Surely the big Eastern European union success story was Solidarity? Although I can understand how unions would struggle to operate in the post-communist era.
      - TomMarius 8y ago
        > Generally in order for unions to exist at all they need a certain amount of protection from reprisals; union organising needs to be a protected activity. Could you please explain why, in the age of e-mail and Facebook? People in my country have zero problem organising political events on Facebook, attracting several tens of thousands of visitors to their demonstrations.
        pjc50 8y ago
        If you're organising a union on Facebook, and you're under American-style at-will employment, and it wasn't banned under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_concerted_activity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_concerted_activity , then the employer would simply immediately fire whichever people were seen to be the ringleaders.
        TomMarius 8y ago
        Good point. Thank you!
      - dragonwriter 8y ago
        > Generally in order for unions to exist at all they need a certain amount of protection from reprisals; This reverses cause and effect: in order for unions to receive any legal protection, they have to exist and fight for it (many members paying very high prices.) The unions precede the legal protection, not the other way around.
- baldfat 8y ago
  > And as soon as anyone mentions unions Can we make it mandatory for everyone that is anti-Union to have to report to work on Labor Day and also they need to work the previous Saturday since it was normally a six day work week before Unions? I still don't understand American working force's love affair with the filthy rich individuals and corporations. I am constantly told, "This is just how economy works" from my Father-In-law and other "conservatives." When I mention that we as the working class are getting less and less of the GDP pie and more is going to the corporations and rich. The feeling is this has always been that way. I immediately say "I'm talking percentage" and sadly the average American is stuck at a 4th grade math level and I guess 4th grade doesn't cover the meaning of percentages. The filthy rich's best warriors are conservative leaning voters right now and I have no idea how that will ever change.
  - TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
    Don't forget that the filthy rich waged literal wars using hired thugs armed with guns against unions and their leaders around the turn of the century. There's precious little mention of this in history lessons.
    - baldfat 8y ago
      Local story for me on how bad the Labor Unions fight was with Police doing the bidding of the companies in 1910. Bethlehem Steel had a strike, 9,000 workers complaining about the 12 hour work days and the unsafe work conditions. A policeman shot and killed union striker Joseph Szambo while he was drinking a beer and his wife gave birth to their child a few hours later. This caused Congress to get involved and to actually make Bethlehem Steel change their practices and the Labor Union won. http://bethlehem.thelehighvalleypress.com/2012/09/12/bethlehem-labor-martyr-remembered http://bethlehem.thelehighvalleypress.com/2012/09/12/bethleh... Now fast forward to the 1980s and Bethlehem Steel wasted millions in tax dollars on building a huge corporate office and didn't redo their old steel works and had to go out of business. People like to blame the Union but it was Corporate waste of resources that was the demise of the company. https://www.mcall.com/opinion/white/mc-bw-bethlehem-steel-plant-20150622-column.html https://www.mcall.com/opinion/white/mc-bw-bethlehem-steel-pl...
chrisseaton 8y ago
> I just don't get how we just can't over turn them politically state by state in State Elections. How is this not a thing? Do most people want to overturn them? I think you're assuming that start state and it's perhaps not the case. > I can be fired for any reason And you can also leave for any reason. It's symmetrical. You don't have this right in some countries - I'd be careful about volunteering to give it up.
- adwn 8y ago
  > And you can also leave for any reason. It's symmetrical. You don't have this right in some countries - I'd be careful about volunteering to give it up. False dilemma [1]. There's no reason to assume that by giving up at-will employment, you'll also lose the right to resign for any reason. In fact, there are lots of countries where you can resign for any reason, but can't be fired for every reason. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    The person I was replying to said 'at-will employment laws ... I just don't get how we just can't over turn them.' The law is both parts of it. You probably wouldn't want to overturn the law, because you'd overturn your protection as well.
    - ceejayoz 8y ago
      We had the right to leave a job long before at-will employment laws were in vogue.
    - kamarg 8y ago
      At least in the states near me that have tried (unsuccessfully ) to pass at will laws, no part of the law that I saw would have taken away employees rights to resign at anytime they wanted for any reason. Is this actually part of at will laws else where?
- krapp 8y ago
matz1 8y ago
Likewise because its sucks if I can't fire my employee for any reason.
HeyLaughingBoy 8y ago
Well, you can also quit for any reason, at any time. Sure, I know that in most cases the employer has more power than the employee, but what's the reasonable alternative? If I run a business and I can't afford you, then I have to continue employing you to the detriment of the rest of the business? One of the guys who reports to me just turned in his 2 weeks notice completely out of the blue. It puts me in a bind because we have more work than people to do it, but I don't harbor any ill will towards him. I can understand your concern (somewhat), but at the same time, being an at will employee simply isn't something that's even on my radar.
- m_mueller 8y ago
  The alternative is something like 3 months notice guaranteed by law after 3 months of employment. This benefits both parties as it’s very problematic to loose employees on projects without any warning.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 8y ago
    Sure, but my point is that as an employee I like knowing I can leave at any time I want. I consider having that freedom a reasonable price to pay for my employer being able to let me go at any time they want.
    - mdekkers 8y ago
      my point is that as an employee I like knowing I can leave at any time I want What gives you the idea that you cannot leave anytime you want as an employee?
      - HeyLaughingBoy 8y ago
        Whut? Look at what you quoted: I said exactly that I can!
- nickik 8y ago
  If you dont want people to walk out that fast put it in the contract. But you will have to pay more.
vonmoltke 8y ago
> I can be fired for any reason and sure I still can sue but I can still lose even though I am 100% in the right Yet at the same time companies are extremely paranoid about firing people without a good excuse for fear of getting sued. These two sentiments don't really line up.
robdachshund 8y ago
I don't get why you think when you are given a job you are entitled to keep it forever. If it's an issue for you then start your own business.

pjc50 8y ago

There's going to be a lot of money thrown at propaganda to convince voters that requiring employers to treat employees fairly will reduce jobs. And as soon as anyone mentions unions, it's all over. Every (right-of-centre) American knows that they're the only hardworking person in the country and the entire rest of the workforce is lazy good-for-nothings who need the constant threat of firing to achieve anything. /s

svantana 8y ago
> as soon as anyone mentions unions, it's all over Isn't there a technical solution to this? Something like an outwardly anonymous social network with "proof" of employment from LinkedIn, where you can pledge to unionize once participation reaches critical mass for your workplace. Yes laws are better, but this could be a decent workaround.
- pjc50 8y ago
  Too easy to infiltrate, too difficult to enforce participation internally. And you've got to advertise it somehow to the workforce. I don't think it's achievable without outside help and political organisation.
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    What is not achievable? We're talking about collective bargaining, how is that not achievable without outside help and involving the government? People got it working just fine 100 years ago... Of course back then laws were not favoring corporations that much (in my country where it worked then, not the USA).
    - pjc50 8y ago
      Getting collective bargaining started requires assembling the collective - this is a lot harder to do if the employer can just fire anyone seen organising. Traditionally bootstrapping into a situation where union organising could happen safely and peacefully required a period of violence on the picket lines. There used to be quite a lot of this in America: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_union_busting_in_the_United_States#Physical_attacks_against_unions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_union_busting_in_th... These days it's even harder in some ways; the more "virtual" an organisation is, the easier it is for the company to just disband and restart it and the harder it is to picket. It's not clear if the various strikes against Uber by its workers have achieved anything. (someone is downvoting you, but it's not me!)
- TomMarius 8y ago
  Why would laws be better? I absolutely don't see how any law could be better than something the people did themselves. Comparable - maybe, but a law is usually way more expensive in the long run and not exactly flexible - and if you were from eastern European state you would know how unions work here (they mostly don't).
  - pjc50 8y ago
    Generally in order for unions to exist at all they need a certain amount of protection from reprisals; union organising needs to be a protected activity. Surely the big Eastern European union success story was Solidarity? Although I can understand how unions would struggle to operate in the post-communist era.
    - TomMarius 8y ago
      > Generally in order for unions to exist at all they need a certain amount of protection from reprisals; union organising needs to be a protected activity. Could you please explain why, in the age of e-mail and Facebook? People in my country have zero problem organising political events on Facebook, attracting several tens of thousands of visitors to their demonstrations.
      - pjc50 8y ago
        If you're organising a union on Facebook, and you're under American-style at-will employment, and it wasn't banned under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_concerted_activity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_concerted_activity , then the employer would simply immediately fire whichever people were seen to be the ringleaders.
        TomMarius 8y ago
        Good point. Thank you!
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > Generally in order for unions to exist at all they need a certain amount of protection from reprisals; This reverses cause and effect: in order for unions to receive any legal protection, they have to exist and fight for it (many members paying very high prices.) The unions precede the legal protection, not the other way around.
baldfat 8y ago
> And as soon as anyone mentions unions Can we make it mandatory for everyone that is anti-Union to have to report to work on Labor Day and also they need to work the previous Saturday since it was normally a six day work week before Unions? I still don't understand American working force's love affair with the filthy rich individuals and corporations. I am constantly told, "This is just how economy works" from my Father-In-law and other "conservatives." When I mention that we as the working class are getting less and less of the GDP pie and more is going to the corporations and rich. The feeling is this has always been that way. I immediately say "I'm talking percentage" and sadly the average American is stuck at a 4th grade math level and I guess 4th grade doesn't cover the meaning of percentages. The filthy rich's best warriors are conservative leaning voters right now and I have no idea how that will ever change.
- TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
  Don't forget that the filthy rich waged literal wars using hired thugs armed with guns against unions and their leaders around the turn of the century. There's precious little mention of this in history lessons.
  - baldfat 8y ago
    Local story for me on how bad the Labor Unions fight was with Police doing the bidding of the companies in 1910. Bethlehem Steel had a strike, 9,000 workers complaining about the 12 hour work days and the unsafe work conditions. A policeman shot and killed union striker Joseph Szambo while he was drinking a beer and his wife gave birth to their child a few hours later. This caused Congress to get involved and to actually make Bethlehem Steel change their practices and the Labor Union won. http://bethlehem.thelehighvalleypress.com/2012/09/12/bethlehem-labor-martyr-remembered http://bethlehem.thelehighvalleypress.com/2012/09/12/bethleh... Now fast forward to the 1980s and Bethlehem Steel wasted millions in tax dollars on building a huge corporate office and didn't redo their old steel works and had to go out of business. People like to blame the Union but it was Corporate waste of resources that was the demise of the company. https://www.mcall.com/opinion/white/mc-bw-bethlehem-steel-plant-20150622-column.html https://www.mcall.com/opinion/white/mc-bw-bethlehem-steel-pl...

chrisseaton 8y ago

> I just don't get how we just can't over turn them politically state by state in State Elections. How is this not a thing? Do most people want to overturn them? I think you're assuming that start state and it's perhaps not the case. > I can be fired for any reason And you can also leave for any reason. It's symmetrical. You don't have this right in some countries - I'd be careful about volunteering to give it up.

adwn 8y ago
> And you can also leave for any reason. It's symmetrical. You don't have this right in some countries - I'd be careful about volunteering to give it up. False dilemma [1]. There's no reason to assume that by giving up at-will employment, you'll also lose the right to resign for any reason. In fact, there are lots of countries where you can resign for any reason, but can't be fired for every reason. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  The person I was replying to said 'at-will employment laws ... I just don't get how we just can't over turn them.' The law is both parts of it. You probably wouldn't want to overturn the law, because you'd overturn your protection as well.
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    We had the right to leave a job long before at-will employment laws were in vogue.
  - kamarg 8y ago
    At least in the states near me that have tried (unsuccessfully ) to pass at will laws, no part of the law that I saw would have taken away employees rights to resign at anytime they wanted for any reason. Is this actually part of at will laws else where?
krapp 8y ago

matz1 8y ago

Likewise because its sucks if I can't fire my employee for any reason.

HeyLaughingBoy 8y ago

Well, you can also quit for any reason, at any time. Sure, I know that in most cases the employer has more power than the employee, but what's the reasonable alternative? If I run a business and I can't afford you, then I have to continue employing you to the detriment of the rest of the business? One of the guys who reports to me just turned in his 2 weeks notice completely out of the blue. It puts me in a bind because we have more work than people to do it, but I don't harbor any ill will towards him. I can understand your concern (somewhat), but at the same time, being an at will employee simply isn't something that's even on my radar.

m_mueller 8y ago
The alternative is something like 3 months notice guaranteed by law after 3 months of employment. This benefits both parties as it’s very problematic to loose employees on projects without any warning.
- HeyLaughingBoy 8y ago
  Sure, but my point is that as an employee I like knowing I can leave at any time I want. I consider having that freedom a reasonable price to pay for my employer being able to let me go at any time they want.
  - mdekkers 8y ago
    my point is that as an employee I like knowing I can leave at any time I want What gives you the idea that you cannot leave anytime you want as an employee?
    - HeyLaughingBoy 8y ago
      Whut? Look at what you quoted: I said exactly that I can!
nickik 8y ago
If you dont want people to walk out that fast put it in the contract. But you will have to pay more.

vonmoltke 8y ago

> I can be fired for any reason and sure I still can sue but I can still lose even though I am 100% in the right Yet at the same time companies are extremely paranoid about firing people without a good excuse for fear of getting sued. These two sentiments don't really line up.

robdachshund 8y ago

I don't get why you think when you are given a job you are entitled to keep it forever. If it's an issue for you then start your own business.