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> Workers recently started to change speed limit signs on the first segment on the Fourth Avenue line in Brooklyn between 36th Street and 59th Street. Overall,

by mabbo 8y ago

> Workers recently started to change speed limit signs on the first segment on the Fourth Avenue line in Brooklyn between 36th Street and 59th Street. Overall, officials plan to change the speed limits at 100 locations by the spring. The real problem here, as I see it, is that humans are still involved in running the trains. We need speed signs for them to read, we need to hope they follow the rules, we need them to control the train as best a human can. Plenty of cities in the world are running autonomous trains. It's not easy to do, but it is doable. Retrofitting existing trains would be a difficult project, I imagine, but worth the cost. How much more efficiency could we gain just by shaving those half seconds (or more) at every single start, stop, door open, door close, etc? I don't even think we need to fire the operators (I'm certain their union would object anyway) so much as change their role to one of managing the autonomous train, providing first aid when needed, keeping a human watch on things.

rtkwe 8y ago
The problem is the subway has a lot of trouble doing the upgrades that would be required to enable computer driven trains the tracking infrastructure just doesn't exist and installing it requires shutdowns that are extremely disruptive and time consuming.
- yostrovs 8y ago
  The MTA will shut down the L train tunnel under the East River for almost two years. There's no talk of automatic trains being introduced as part of that, remarkably long, repair.
  - bogomipz 8y ago
    Which is incredible since the L line made its first "automatic" debut over a decade ago: https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/automated-train-rolls-article-1.389778 https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/automated-train-rolls-a... It costs hundreds of million of dollars and there were service disruptions for years, often entire weekends to do the work. There was no Uber or Lyft either.
  - hapless 8y ago
    The L train has been fully automated for many years. The reason that only the L was improved was that it is largely separate from the rest of the system. There are extremely few rail connections and none that are regularly used.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- nine_k 8y ago
  Most of the tunnels have 4 tracks, so shutting down even half of them will not disrupt commuting all that much, especially if not done for a very large length. In many places, it will somehow slow down express trains. MTA did this e.g. in Brooklyn on the B/Q line. I'm afraid that computer-driven trains mostly mean no need for people "driving" the trains, and the trade union won't be happy with that.
  - Wowfunhappy 8y ago
    > Most of the tunnels have 4 tracks, so shutting down even half of them will not disrupt commuting all that much, especially if not done for a very large length. I'm going to guess you don't commute on the New York subway. :P Generally, there's two tracks for each direction, one local and one express. You can't shut down just one direction for obvious reasons. The New York subway is busy enough that shutting down either the local or express track—while better than taking the subways fully out of commission—is a huge pain. When the express track closes, your commute takes twice as long; when the local track closes, your station will likely be bypassed. And in both cases, this makes for overcrowded trains, to the point where you often have to wait for a couple before you're able to board. (I'm not saying we shouldn't do upgrades, but shutting down a track is indeed very disruptive.)
sotojuan 8y ago
MTA's union is heavily opposed to anything that will result in less jobs. Even with the CBTC system that is mostly automated they put two people in the train instead of just one. I'm pro union and worker's right but the MTA definitely fits lot of the negative stereotypes of unions.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Justsignedup 8y ago
  just like literally anything, too much power in some one entity is bad
- isostatic 8y ago
  London's Central Line is automated, however there's still a driver, who presses "go" and opens/closes the doors. More importantly they're also there for if something bad happens or they need to take over. Is the MTA different?
Fuehxirne 8y ago
There are no fully automated train networks even close to the size and complexity of the MTA. Afaik they're mostly really simple point to point trains. Upgrading the 7 line to CBTC costs billions, and that line was expressly chosen because of its limited interactions with other trains. Making the entire NYC subway "driverless" would probably cost on the order of hundreds of billions of dollars, if it could be done at all. There are more cost effective ways to reduce dwell times, to use your example.

by mabbo 8y ago

rtkwe 8y ago

The problem is the subway has a lot of trouble doing the upgrades that would be required to enable computer driven trains the tracking infrastructure just doesn't exist and installing it requires shutdowns that are extremely disruptive and time consuming.

yostrovs 8y ago
The MTA will shut down the L train tunnel under the East River for almost two years. There's no talk of automatic trains being introduced as part of that, remarkably long, repair.
- bogomipz 8y ago
  Which is incredible since the L line made its first "automatic" debut over a decade ago: https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/automated-train-rolls-article-1.389778 https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/automated-train-rolls-a... It costs hundreds of million of dollars and there were service disruptions for years, often entire weekends to do the work. There was no Uber or Lyft either.
- hapless 8y ago
  The L train has been fully automated for many years. The reason that only the L was improved was that it is largely separate from the rest of the system. There are extremely few rail connections and none that are regularly used.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
nine_k 8y ago
Most of the tunnels have 4 tracks, so shutting down even half of them will not disrupt commuting all that much, especially if not done for a very large length. In many places, it will somehow slow down express trains. MTA did this e.g. in Brooklyn on the B/Q line. I'm afraid that computer-driven trains mostly mean no need for people "driving" the trains, and the trade union won't be happy with that.
- Wowfunhappy 8y ago
  > Most of the tunnels have 4 tracks, so shutting down even half of them will not disrupt commuting all that much, especially if not done for a very large length. I'm going to guess you don't commute on the New York subway. :P Generally, there's two tracks for each direction, one local and one express. You can't shut down just one direction for obvious reasons. The New York subway is busy enough that shutting down either the local or express track—while better than taking the subways fully out of commission—is a huge pain. When the express track closes, your commute takes twice as long; when the local track closes, your station will likely be bypassed. And in both cases, this makes for overcrowded trains, to the point where you often have to wait for a couple before you're able to board. (I'm not saying we shouldn't do upgrades, but shutting down a track is indeed very disruptive.)

sotojuan 8y ago

MTA's union is heavily opposed to anything that will result in less jobs. Even with the CBTC system that is mostly automated they put two people in the train instead of just one. I'm pro union and worker's right but the MTA definitely fits lot of the negative stereotypes of unions.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Justsignedup 8y ago
just like literally anything, too much power in some one entity is bad
isostatic 8y ago
London's Central Line is automated, however there's still a driver, who presses "go" and opens/closes the doors. More importantly they're also there for if something bad happens or they need to take over. Is the MTA different?

Fuehxirne 8y ago

There are no fully automated train networks even close to the size and complexity of the MTA. Afaik they're mostly really simple point to point trains. Upgrading the 7 line to CBTC costs billions, and that line was expressly chosen because of its limited interactions with other trains. Making the entire NYC subway "driverless" would probably cost on the order of hundreds of billions of dollars, if it could be done at all. There are more cost effective ways to reduce dwell times, to use your example.