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U.S. perspective, writing this. I find this is an area where a "moral decision" is rather clear-cut. And it highlights the... "amorality", at best, of much of

U.S. perspective, writing this. I find this is an area where a "moral decision" is rather clear-cut. And it highlights the... "amorality", at best, of much of our relationship (whether speaking at the personal level or the state/economy level) with contemporary China. With our technology, we've enabled and empowered a political and economic structure that has not... "sorted its shit" as part of achieving same. Simultaneously, we've hollowed out our own system -- the checks and balances, as well as raw job counts. The U.S. is far from perfect. Nonetheless, literally, physically "ripping the life" from one person, as a judgement, to benefit another. That is some symbolism. And a hallmark of what our own society has at least publicly considered to be "dystopia". ---- P.S. I responded to a reply with the following, but the child comment was deleted before I finished. It was a more than fair point about what happens (over here), and the opportunity for response allowed me to better qualify the... "us versus them" -- or perhaps lack of a "versus" -- present in my original comment. So, copy/pasta of that reply of mine: My "the U.S. is far from perfect" is an understatement -- one I worried about. I agree with your point, and I find the behaviors you point out abhorrent. Prison for profit; Econ. 101 teaches you what you're going to get from that. The U.S. has, however, been pretty aggressive in regulating organ transplants. When they happen. How limited, hopefully ethical, supplies are distributed. Of course, over this hangs the spectre of economic disparity, corresponding health insurance disparity and health care access... Yes, the U.S. is making plenty of life-altering, life-destroying decisions. The "death panels" that actually exist but don't make it into the political discussion (i.e. not the ginned up political phantoms). And, some of those disparities seem to have been severely exacerbated, domestically -- progress actively reversed -- through off-shoring, outsourcing, and the winner-take-all, short-term reward. As I grow more depressed writing this, well, at least we aren't ripping out "prisoners'" organs -- yet. (We go overseas and buy nice foreigners' kidneys, for that.)

toomuchtodo 8y ago
Indeed. What is the solution? Economic sanctions (I'd argue yes)? UN resolutions? (Useless) Boots on the ground? (Physical force, while preferably a last resort, is always an option). I'm starting to warm to the idea of using tariffs and other punitive measures to drag manufacturing back to US shores.
- thinkloop 8y ago
  These things only work when there's a large asymmetry in power, otherwise the cost is too high. US >> N.Korea, US >> Iran. China's too powerful and important to do anything serious, we will have to likely deal with this on a case-by-case basis like we do Saudi Arabia, hopefully generating enough soft pressure and potential inflammation that they become fearful of creating a Khashoggi incident.
  - topkai22 8y ago
    The US would break its sanctioning tools if it took on China unilaterally with sanctions, but if they managed a coalition that included the EU and a few others it could work.
    - cabalamat 8y ago
      This would require the USA being a lot more willing to act co-operatively with other countries than its present leadership seems capable of.
      - RcouF1uZ4gsC 8y ago
        It would also include the EU showing a lot more backbone than they usually do. Just look at the Russian sanctions and how natural gas is pitches from Russia by the EU.
        cabalamat 8y ago
        Absolutely true.
- topkai22 8y ago
  Economic Sanctions- possible, but only effective with Allies and a clear set of demands on what it takes to lift the sanctions UN Resolution- China is a veto holding member of the security council, not happening Boots on the ground- not worth it, even morally. A ground war with China will kill hundreds of thousands at a minimum.
pizza 8y ago
Taking "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need" to its perverse party-sanctioned extreme..
josephpmay 8y ago
At first look, from a Western perspective, this is 100% clear-cut morally bad. But I've also learned a limited amount about the Chinese moral perspective in college, and it can be a useful exercise to examine how someone who doesn't have a Judeo-Christian/Locke moral framework may view this practice. In some ways, the harvesting of organs from political prisoners can be viewed as the trolley problem. Killing one political prisoner (an 'undesirable' in Chinese society) could save a number of lives of upstanding citizens. The practice disgusts me personally, but I can see a reasonable argument in support of it.
- zanny 8y ago
  Of course its "reasonable" to argue when you are on the receiving end of the organ donations and not the end being put to slaughter for parts. This is just the extreme end of it though. All states ruled by those who don't believe in the value of human life irrespective of what value that life is to them is at least capable of such atrocity and at worst presently committing it.
- vkou 8y ago
  I feel much the same way about forced labour in prisons, but, unfortunately, our courts have made numerous arguments (That they feel are quite reasonable) to support it. "They shouldn't have become criminals." "They cost us money, make them earn their keep." "The constitution permits this." are examples of how we justify that bit of inhuman utilitarianism.
- porpoisely 8y ago
  > At first look, from a Western perspective, this is 100% clear-cut morally bad. There is no such thing as a western perspective or morals. Just like there is no such thing as an asian perspective or morals. The western, just like the asian or even chinese, perspective is so vast and disparate and diverse that it is futile to pigeonhole one region into a single perspective. Case in point, the "west" encompasses everything from christian charity to nazism to black enslavement to native genocide. We aren't a monolith with one set of values. Never have been, never will be. And if you think western perspective views this as 100% morally bad, then you haven't researched the history of western medicine. > But I've also learned a limited amount about the Chinese moral perspective in college, and it can be a useful exercise to examine how someone who doesn't have a Judeo-Christian/Locke moral framework may view this practice. There is no such thing as judeo-christian anything. The judeo and christian are morally antithetical. The basis of christ and christianity is the fundamental shift from judeo values and morals to christian ones. I grew up christian but am an atheist, but I cringe whenever people use "judeo-christian". Also, "judeo-christian" has nothing to do with Locke's philosophy. > In some ways, the harvesting of organs from political prisoners can be viewed as the trolley problem. Killing one political prisoner (an 'undesirable' in Chinese society) could save a number of lives of upstanding citizens. In the west, we call this utilitarianism. It isn't anything special to china. One of the most important thinkers in the past few hundred years ( john stuart mills) formulated the philosophy. The problems with china isn't a "chinese" problem. It is a human problem. Whatever china is guilty of is what we all are or have been guilty of.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

toomuchtodo 8y ago

Indeed. What is the solution? Economic sanctions (I'd argue yes)? UN resolutions? (Useless) Boots on the ground? (Physical force, while preferably a last resort, is always an option). I'm starting to warm to the idea of using tariffs and other punitive measures to drag manufacturing back to US shores.

thinkloop 8y ago
These things only work when there's a large asymmetry in power, otherwise the cost is too high. US >> N.Korea, US >> Iran. China's too powerful and important to do anything serious, we will have to likely deal with this on a case-by-case basis like we do Saudi Arabia, hopefully generating enough soft pressure and potential inflammation that they become fearful of creating a Khashoggi incident.
- topkai22 8y ago
  The US would break its sanctioning tools if it took on China unilaterally with sanctions, but if they managed a coalition that included the EU and a few others it could work.
  - cabalamat 8y ago
    This would require the USA being a lot more willing to act co-operatively with other countries than its present leadership seems capable of.
    - RcouF1uZ4gsC 8y ago
      It would also include the EU showing a lot more backbone than they usually do. Just look at the Russian sanctions and how natural gas is pitches from Russia by the EU.
      - cabalamat 8y ago
        Absolutely true.
topkai22 8y ago
Economic Sanctions- possible, but only effective with Allies and a clear set of demands on what it takes to lift the sanctions UN Resolution- China is a veto holding member of the security council, not happening Boots on the ground- not worth it, even morally. A ground war with China will kill hundreds of thousands at a minimum.

pizza 8y ago

Taking "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need" to its perverse party-sanctioned extreme..

josephpmay 8y ago

At first look, from a Western perspective, this is 100% clear-cut morally bad. But I've also learned a limited amount about the Chinese moral perspective in college, and it can be a useful exercise to examine how someone who doesn't have a Judeo-Christian/Locke moral framework may view this practice. In some ways, the harvesting of organs from political prisoners can be viewed as the trolley problem. Killing one political prisoner (an 'undesirable' in Chinese society) could save a number of lives of upstanding citizens. The practice disgusts me personally, but I can see a reasonable argument in support of it.

zanny 8y ago
Of course its "reasonable" to argue when you are on the receiving end of the organ donations and not the end being put to slaughter for parts. This is just the extreme end of it though. All states ruled by those who don't believe in the value of human life irrespective of what value that life is to them is at least capable of such atrocity and at worst presently committing it.
vkou 8y ago
I feel much the same way about forced labour in prisons, but, unfortunately, our courts have made numerous arguments (That they feel are quite reasonable) to support it. "They shouldn't have become criminals." "They cost us money, make them earn their keep." "The constitution permits this." are examples of how we justify that bit of inhuman utilitarianism.
porpoisely 8y ago
> At first look, from a Western perspective, this is 100% clear-cut morally bad. There is no such thing as a western perspective or morals. Just like there is no such thing as an asian perspective or morals. The western, just like the asian or even chinese, perspective is so vast and disparate and diverse that it is futile to pigeonhole one region into a single perspective. Case in point, the "west" encompasses everything from christian charity to nazism to black enslavement to native genocide. We aren't a monolith with one set of values. Never have been, never will be. And if you think western perspective views this as 100% morally bad, then you haven't researched the history of western medicine. > But I've also learned a limited amount about the Chinese moral perspective in college, and it can be a useful exercise to examine how someone who doesn't have a Judeo-Christian/Locke moral framework may view this practice. There is no such thing as judeo-christian anything. The judeo and christian are morally antithetical. The basis of christ and christianity is the fundamental shift from judeo values and morals to christian ones. I grew up christian but am an atheist, but I cringe whenever people use "judeo-christian". Also, "judeo-christian" has nothing to do with Locke's philosophy. > In some ways, the harvesting of organs from political prisoners can be viewed as the trolley problem. Killing one political prisoner (an 'undesirable' in Chinese society) could save a number of lives of upstanding citizens. In the west, we call this utilitarianism. It isn't anything special to china. One of the most important thinkers in the past few hundred years ( john stuart mills) formulated the philosophy. The problems with china isn't a "chinese" problem. It is a human problem. Whatever china is guilty of is what we all are or have been guilty of.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]