5 ms·

Wow, looks horrible. Much better to make that a communal garden and have the garage underground.

kazen44 8y ago
This reminds me of the plattenbau used in east germany. Where they had huge concrete buildings (although with a communal garden).
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
mkirklions 8y ago
That sounds like a fun idea. Excavation is expensive and toss in an under-utilized garden space- You could probably run for office with those ideas. Pros of this idea: Looks pretty. A few people can grow tomato's for a fun hobby. Cons of this idea: More expensive and unavailable for lower income. To be fair, I'm overtly sympathetic to the lowest income.
- bdamm 8y ago
  Being unavailable to the lowest income is a viable platform to run on in some districts.
amyjess 8y ago
Underground isn't feasible in Texas. Our soil is all clay here, and it's ridiculously expensive to dig through. The only buildings I've seen here with basements are giant skyscrapers in Downtown Dallas and a handful of buildings at the University of Texas at Dallas.
oftenwrong 8y ago
It's not typical to have underground construction in Dallas. It is partly due to the expansive clay soil composition. Furthermore, there is not much pressure to make efficient use of land because the city is already quite sprawling. The cost of building underground would almost certainly not be justified.
ahoy 8y ago
In addition to the difficulty of underground construction in Texas that others have pointed out, there's also the issue of parking minimums that most new construction projects require. Legally, that parking has to go somewhere.
- max76 8y ago
  While legally there must be parking minimums in Texas, it's very often very close to the practical required parking in Texas.
  - Empact 8y ago
    I wonder how you would determine this, given that free parking is a substantial sunk cost which would otherwise discourage car ownership in favor of fewer vehicles or other modes? I grew up in Texas and saw what seemed to be a substantial over-supply of parking.
    - wahern 8y ago
      In Houston and Dallas about 1/3 of office parking spots sit empty at peak usage: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/real-estate/article/Are-we-building-too-much-parking-13244081.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/real-estate/articl... I think the issue is that it only takes a single office building or big box store to overflow its parking for people to internalize the notion that parking is scarce and we need to require more of it. All the empty parking goes unnoticed because empty parking spots or parkings lots aren't, individually, a problem.
adrianmonk 8y ago
Having the garage underground sounds great. Are you paying?
odorousrex 8y ago
I would put the commanul garden/park on the top level of the parking garage and have hanging/climbing plants go down the various sides so interior apartments have something nicer to look at. It still meets the parking requirements, and yet is a lot prettier and more useful.
eqdw 8y ago
Underground parking structures cost something on the order of 5x as much as aboveground parking structures. And aboveground parking structures are already ungodly expensive. One example given from The High Cost Of Free Parking (which is an amazing book that everyone should read, or at least read a summary of) looked at a study of parking facilities and found that the amortized per-parking spot cost of building an above-ground parking facility, including construction, maintenance, and staffing, was $120,000 per spot. 5x that and you're looking at half a mil per spot for undergrounding it. Would you, personally, pay an additional $400,000 to put that parking underground? Do you think you could convince every single person in that housing complex to do that? I highly doubt it. If that apartment complex was condos, eg, it's likely in that case that each condo unit would be cheaper than the parking spot for it (keeping in mind that, given it's Texas, most units would probably have 2 or maybe even 3 parking spots). Even if you could actually get everyone on board to spend so much, you'd be so dramatically increasing the unit cost of housing in that facility that you'd start getting all the typical gentrification problems. Your typical middle class family can't afford an extra 1/2 million dollars on their mortgage, so if you add that extra 1/2 mil the only way you're getting paying customers is to target the luxury top of the market. ---- Pre-emptive rebuttal: one might say "well, if each parking spot already costs $120k, that argument applies just as well to the existing parking facility". I agree! Mandatory parking minima are an ungodly expensive tax on our society. If parking costs could be fully internalized and then each individual resident was presented with the option to forego the parking spot in exchange for taking that much off of their mortgage, I suspect that a _lot_ of them would forego the parking spot. But, by law, they are not allowed that option. This is doubly perverse when you realize that the cost of providing 2 marginal parking spots at an apartment complex is significantly _more_ expensive than the cost of providing 2 marginal parking spots at (eg) a suburban single family home, and yet the people who live in an apartment complex are significantly more likely to have good access to mass transit and so they're being made to pay much much more for something that they need somewhat less than the average perosn
- amyjess 8y ago
  > Would you, personally, pay an additional $400,000 to put that parking underground? Do you think you could convince every single person in that housing complex to do that? I highly doubt it. If that apartment complex was condos, eg, it's likely in that case that each condo unit would be cheaper than the parking spot for it (keeping in mind that, given it's Texas, most units would probably have 2 or maybe even 3 parking spots). Also, the picture here is from a mixed-use development, not just a housing complex (it's from the West Village in Uptown Dallas; I posted a Street View link in another comment if you're interested). There's retail on the ground floor. Nobody in Dallas is going to go shopping or out to eat if we can't drive there and find a place to park. I can't even count the amount of times my friends or family have said "eh, let's go somewhere else" or "we'll come back another day" just because we couldn't find a place to park. No parking spots means businesses go under. So not only do you need 2-3 parking spots per unit, you need parking for all the customers of the retail establishments on the ground floor.

This reminds me of the plattenbau used in east germany. Where they had huge concrete buildings (although with a communal garden).

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

mkirklions 8y ago

That sounds like a fun idea. Excavation is expensive and toss in an under-utilized garden space- You could probably run for office with those ideas. Pros of this idea: Looks pretty. A few people can grow tomato's for a fun hobby. Cons of this idea: More expensive and unavailable for lower income. To be fair, I'm overtly sympathetic to the lowest income.

bdamm 8y ago
Being unavailable to the lowest income is a viable platform to run on in some districts.

amyjess 8y ago

Underground isn't feasible in Texas. Our soil is all clay here, and it's ridiculously expensive to dig through. The only buildings I've seen here with basements are giant skyscrapers in Downtown Dallas and a handful of buildings at the University of Texas at Dallas.

oftenwrong 8y ago

It's not typical to have underground construction in Dallas. It is partly due to the expansive clay soil composition. Furthermore, there is not much pressure to make efficient use of land because the city is already quite sprawling. The cost of building underground would almost certainly not be justified.

ahoy 8y ago

In addition to the difficulty of underground construction in Texas that others have pointed out, there's also the issue of parking minimums that most new construction projects require. Legally, that parking has to go somewhere.

max76 8y ago
While legally there must be parking minimums in Texas, it's very often very close to the practical required parking in Texas.
- Empact 8y ago
  I wonder how you would determine this, given that free parking is a substantial sunk cost which would otherwise discourage car ownership in favor of fewer vehicles or other modes? I grew up in Texas and saw what seemed to be a substantial over-supply of parking.
  - wahern 8y ago
    In Houston and Dallas about 1/3 of office parking spots sit empty at peak usage: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/real-estate/article/Are-we-building-too-much-parking-13244081.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/real-estate/articl... I think the issue is that it only takes a single office building or big box store to overflow its parking for people to internalize the notion that parking is scarce and we need to require more of it. All the empty parking goes unnoticed because empty parking spots or parkings lots aren't, individually, a problem.

adrianmonk 8y ago

Having the garage underground sounds great. Are you paying?

odorousrex 8y ago

I would put the commanul garden/park on the top level of the parking garage and have hanging/climbing plants go down the various sides so interior apartments have something nicer to look at. It still meets the parking requirements, and yet is a lot prettier and more useful.

eqdw 8y ago

Underground parking structures cost something on the order of 5x as much as aboveground parking structures. And aboveground parking structures are already ungodly expensive. One example given from The High Cost Of Free Parking (which is an amazing book that everyone should read, or at least read a summary of) looked at a study of parking facilities and found that the amortized per-parking spot cost of building an above-ground parking facility, including construction, maintenance, and staffing, was $120,000 per spot. 5x that and you're looking at half a mil per spot for undergrounding it. Would you, personally, pay an additional $400,000 to put that parking underground? Do you think you could convince every single person in that housing complex to do that? I highly doubt it. If that apartment complex was condos, eg, it's likely in that case that each condo unit would be cheaper than the parking spot for it (keeping in mind that, given it's Texas, most units would probably have 2 or maybe even 3 parking spots). Even if you could actually get everyone on board to spend so much, you'd be so dramatically increasing the unit cost of housing in that facility that you'd start getting all the typical gentrification problems. Your typical middle class family can't afford an extra 1/2 million dollars on their mortgage, so if you add that extra 1/2 mil the only way you're getting paying customers is to target the luxury top of the market. ---- Pre-emptive rebuttal: one might say "well, if each parking spot already costs $120k, that argument applies just as well to the existing parking facility". I agree! Mandatory parking minima are an ungodly expensive tax on our society. If parking costs could be fully internalized and then each individual resident was presented with the option to forego the parking spot in exchange for taking that much off of their mortgage, I suspect that a _lot_ of them would forego the parking spot. But, by law, they are not allowed that option. This is doubly perverse when you realize that the cost of providing 2 marginal parking spots at an apartment complex is significantly _more_ expensive than the cost of providing 2 marginal parking spots at (eg) a suburban single family home, and yet the people who live in an apartment complex are significantly more likely to have good access to mass transit and so they're being made to pay much much more for something that they need somewhat less than the average perosn

amyjess 8y ago
> Would you, personally, pay an additional $400,000 to put that parking underground? Do you think you could convince every single person in that housing complex to do that? I highly doubt it. If that apartment complex was condos, eg, it's likely in that case that each condo unit would be cheaper than the parking spot for it (keeping in mind that, given it's Texas, most units would probably have 2 or maybe even 3 parking spots). Also, the picture here is from a mixed-use development, not just a housing complex (it's from the West Village in Uptown Dallas; I posted a Street View link in another comment if you're interested). There's retail on the ground floor. Nobody in Dallas is going to go shopping or out to eat if we can't drive there and find a place to park. I can't even count the amount of times my friends or family have said "eh, let's go somewhere else" or "we'll come back another day" just because we couldn't find a place to park. No parking spots means businesses go under. So not only do you need 2-3 parking spots per unit, you need parking for all the customers of the retail establishments on the ground floor.