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Disclosure: im a full-time auto mechanic learning python in my ample spare time. In terms of emissions, you wont come close to what a diesel long haul truck is

Disclosure: im a full-time auto mechanic learning python in my ample spare time. In terms of emissions, you wont come close to what a diesel long haul truck is putting out, and those are the vehicles no one really talks about. Freightliner and peterbilt all showcase their latest trucks with urea scrubbers and nox emissions reduction technology, or even hybrid/electric systems when they go to trade shows, but most fleet operators are on a 30 year curve. No trucking company wants to buy a truck new. and thanks to loopholes in EPA regulations they dont need to. fleet owners can do whats called a "glider" conversion. You essentially take the guts of a 30 year old tractor trailer, and wrap it in a nice new body. this works well to refurbish trucks that have been in rollover accidents or written off by insurance companies. they are easier to move from salvage to titled. Assembly of a glider is also prone to problems. Professional mechanics can do it well, but its not cheap, so to drop the cost of a glider most fleet owners sub this work out from their main shops to subcontractors of Salvadorian day laborers. The result is that the truck runs, but critical things like the urea tank wont run, the pyrometer is broken, and the dashboard lights up like a christmas tree. Ive even seen gliders where the speedometer was so incorrect, the driver told me to "use the gps" on my phone instead. These trucks are miles off spec for EPA, but most states only halfheartedly enforce the EPA regulations for trucks. Fleet owners title them in states like Indiana, florida and Ohio for a reason: these states couldnt care less if the truck smokes out the parking lot of a wal-mart just starting up.

Eric_WVGG 8y ago
Glad you mentioned "gliders"… they were on the chopping block, but obviously any and every common sense decision from 2008-2016 will be reversed by this awesome administration. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17478176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17478176
travisoneill1 8y ago
How does that work economically? Isn't a 30 year old truck engine massively less efficient than a modern one?
- nwatson 8y ago
  Capex vs Opex? The cost of new/refurbished equipment is an up-front cost and takes longer to depreciate (but refurbished is lower-cost and so has fewer immediate penalties), whereas diesel fuel and other similar costs can be charged immediately as expenses related to customer fees. Same as why businesses might prefer to pay more real-money over the long term to rent servers via AWS than spend money up front for servers and run their own, longer-term-cheaper, server farm. (Edit: clarification)
- nimbius 8y ago
  tax, title, and license, inspection and certification for a long haul truck is much more involved than an automobile. For example, a 2019 Volvo VNL might only cost 165,000usd. However the total cost in the first year for owning this truck (assuming the person you hired to drive it doesnt wreck it) is more than a Rolls Royce Phantom...close to half a million. The engine also wont realize the actual MPG advertised until its broken in...roughly 10-25k miles. You wont realize the gas savings in the first 10 years, or ever really, so most trucking companies rarely care about new trucks with emissions controls that dont save fuel. They get rebates from the federal government for installing those metal spoilers on trailers anyhow.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  The operating costs of modern emissions equipment is far greater than the cost of the extra fuel wasted on a less efficient drive-train. It might be close to even for operators that do maintenance in house (I'm not familiar enough with the industry to know). If emissions equipment wasn't expensive and unreliable (relative to the rest of the truck) this market wouldn't exist.
- leakybit 8y ago
  Might be less efficient, but some older diesel engines have a track record of being much more reliable.
NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Fascinating. Seeing a truck that's over 10 or 15 years old is uncommon here in the UK. If I saw something 30 years old it would be rare enough to default to believing it was on its way to a vehicle show, or owned by a collector. I'm sure there's a few out there, still in active commercial use, but few enough that you'd be surprised to see one.
thinkcontext 8y ago
This is a great argument for why a price on carbon is a better solution than a direct regulatory approach. You can't game the price at the pump or find a loophole, or at least its more difficult to do so.
- Hupriene 8y ago
  Not true. Many of the problems described by gp wouldn't affect the fuel efficiency of the truck, but still vastly increase the pollutants the truck puts out. Replacing your catalytic converter with a steel pipe is the obvious way to game a carbon tax.
  - thinkcontext 8y ago
    Good point. There's a role for both.
  - SilasX 8y ago
    That would be an argument for taxing the pollutants too. (Yes, it's not a perfect policy, but please don't criticize it with an argument equivalent to saying that a unit of pollution is infinitely bad. It's not.)
- SigmundA 8y ago
  NOx is not carbon and typically NOx emissions go up the more efficient the engine is. So while your carbon emissions per mile may go down your NOx emission may go up.
- Gibbon1 8y ago
  I'm a broken record, but a price on things that emit carbon dioxide and NOX is better. Because when people/companies buy a fossil fueled machines they've made a irrevocable decision to emit a fixed amount of CO2/NOX. That's the decision point where you need to force peoples hand. Example: I bought a used 2012 Prius in 2015. The moment that car was built an extra 50 tons of CO2 was slated to be emitted over the next 15 years. You can raise the gas tax as much as politically possible and that won't change the amount of CO2 the car will emit.
- 8y ago
jhallenworld 8y ago
It has been interesting watching the continuing fallout from the VW diesel scandal. When they tested diesel cars for emissions on the road, almost all of them failed. (Amazingly the few that passed were VWs.. I think they bumped up the urea injection) There is a study showing the number of additional deaths due to these emissions. So trust in diesels has plummeted and some German cities have banned diesel cars. A related story is that in New York City recently banned the use of number 4 and number 6 heating oil. I wish there were government incentives to switch from heating oil to gas in places which still use heating oil, like New England. https://phys.org/news/2018-09-emissions-diesel-cars-europe-greatly.html https://phys.org/news/2018-09-emissions-diesel-cars-europe-g... https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/925353/Germany-diesel-ban-fuel-Europe-cars https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/925353/Germany-die... https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/22/nyregion/new-york-city-bans-dirtiest-heating-oils-at-buildings.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/22/nyregion/new-york-city-ba... Number 6 heating oil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-zGprBV3OI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-zGprBV3OI Anyway, I'm thinking that the truck and marine loopholes need to be fixed. I believe it's just a matter of time.
- jhallenworld 8y ago
  So I just learned that in 2020 ships will be required to reduce their sulfur emissions: https://www.forbes.com/sites/woodmackenzie/2018/09/03/will-imo-2020-introduce-mayhem-or-opportunity-to-the-refining-and-marine-sectors/#60b8dbed632d https://www.forbes.com/sites/woodmackenzie/2018/09/03/will-i... The will have to use fuel with no more than .5% sulfur, vs. 3.5% previously. This is amazing compared to auto diesel sulfur requirements in the US: 15 ppm.
pif 8y ago
> The result is that the truck runs, but critical things like the urea tank wont run... Well, the urea tank may be critical for ecology, but it surely isn't critical for the fleet's owner!
schimmy_changa 8y ago
Huh - would it be possible for a state that cares (say... California?) to check the trucks when entering the state? Or is that not allowed due to the Interstate Commerce act? Perhaps our CARB exception could allow us to regulate this and change a large fraction of trucks in the country to pollute less...

Eric_WVGG 8y ago

Glad you mentioned "gliders"… they were on the chopping block, but obviously any and every common sense decision from 2008-2016 will be reversed by this awesome administration. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17478176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17478176

travisoneill1 8y ago

How does that work economically? Isn't a 30 year old truck engine massively less efficient than a modern one?

nwatson 8y ago
Capex vs Opex? The cost of new/refurbished equipment is an up-front cost and takes longer to depreciate (but refurbished is lower-cost and so has fewer immediate penalties), whereas diesel fuel and other similar costs can be charged immediately as expenses related to customer fees. Same as why businesses might prefer to pay more real-money over the long term to rent servers via AWS than spend money up front for servers and run their own, longer-term-cheaper, server farm. (Edit: clarification)
nimbius 8y ago
tax, title, and license, inspection and certification for a long haul truck is much more involved than an automobile. For example, a 2019 Volvo VNL might only cost 165,000usd. However the total cost in the first year for owning this truck (assuming the person you hired to drive it doesnt wreck it) is more than a Rolls Royce Phantom...close to half a million. The engine also wont realize the actual MPG advertised until its broken in...roughly 10-25k miles. You wont realize the gas savings in the first 10 years, or ever really, so most trucking companies rarely care about new trucks with emissions controls that dont save fuel. They get rebates from the federal government for installing those metal spoilers on trailers anyhow.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
The operating costs of modern emissions equipment is far greater than the cost of the extra fuel wasted on a less efficient drive-train. It might be close to even for operators that do maintenance in house (I'm not familiar enough with the industry to know). If emissions equipment wasn't expensive and unreliable (relative to the rest of the truck) this market wouldn't exist.
leakybit 8y ago
Might be less efficient, but some older diesel engines have a track record of being much more reliable.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago

Fascinating. Seeing a truck that's over 10 or 15 years old is uncommon here in the UK. If I saw something 30 years old it would be rare enough to default to believing it was on its way to a vehicle show, or owned by a collector. I'm sure there's a few out there, still in active commercial use, but few enough that you'd be surprised to see one.

thinkcontext 8y ago

This is a great argument for why a price on carbon is a better solution than a direct regulatory approach. You can't game the price at the pump or find a loophole, or at least its more difficult to do so.

Hupriene 8y ago
Not true. Many of the problems described by gp wouldn't affect the fuel efficiency of the truck, but still vastly increase the pollutants the truck puts out. Replacing your catalytic converter with a steel pipe is the obvious way to game a carbon tax.
- thinkcontext 8y ago
  Good point. There's a role for both.
- SilasX 8y ago
  That would be an argument for taxing the pollutants too. (Yes, it's not a perfect policy, but please don't criticize it with an argument equivalent to saying that a unit of pollution is infinitely bad. It's not.)
SigmundA 8y ago
NOx is not carbon and typically NOx emissions go up the more efficient the engine is. So while your carbon emissions per mile may go down your NOx emission may go up.
Gibbon1 8y ago
I'm a broken record, but a price on things that emit carbon dioxide and NOX is better. Because when people/companies buy a fossil fueled machines they've made a irrevocable decision to emit a fixed amount of CO2/NOX. That's the decision point where you need to force peoples hand. Example: I bought a used 2012 Prius in 2015. The moment that car was built an extra 50 tons of CO2 was slated to be emitted over the next 15 years. You can raise the gas tax as much as politically possible and that won't change the amount of CO2 the car will emit.
8y ago

jhallenworld 8y ago

It has been interesting watching the continuing fallout from the VW diesel scandal. When they tested diesel cars for emissions on the road, almost all of them failed. (Amazingly the few that passed were VWs.. I think they bumped up the urea injection) There is a study showing the number of additional deaths due to these emissions. So trust in diesels has plummeted and some German cities have banned diesel cars. A related story is that in New York City recently banned the use of number 4 and number 6 heating oil. I wish there were government incentives to switch from heating oil to gas in places which still use heating oil, like New England. https://phys.org/news/2018-09-emissions-diesel-cars-europe-greatly.html https://phys.org/news/2018-09-emissions-diesel-cars-europe-g... https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/925353/Germany-diesel-ban-fuel-Europe-cars https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/925353/Germany-die... https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/22/nyregion/new-york-city-bans-dirtiest-heating-oils-at-buildings.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/22/nyregion/new-york-city-ba... Number 6 heating oil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-zGprBV3OI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-zGprBV3OI Anyway, I'm thinking that the truck and marine loopholes need to be fixed. I believe it's just a matter of time.

jhallenworld 8y ago
So I just learned that in 2020 ships will be required to reduce their sulfur emissions: https://www.forbes.com/sites/woodmackenzie/2018/09/03/will-imo-2020-introduce-mayhem-or-opportunity-to-the-refining-and-marine-sectors/#60b8dbed632d https://www.forbes.com/sites/woodmackenzie/2018/09/03/will-i... The will have to use fuel with no more than .5% sulfur, vs. 3.5% previously. This is amazing compared to auto diesel sulfur requirements in the US: 15 ppm.

pif 8y ago

> The result is that the truck runs, but critical things like the urea tank wont run... Well, the urea tank may be critical for ecology, but it surely isn't critical for the fleet's owner!

schimmy_changa 8y ago

Huh - would it be possible for a state that cares (say... California?) to check the trucks when entering the state? Or is that not allowed due to the Interstate Commerce act? Perhaps our CARB exception could allow us to regulate this and change a large fraction of trucks in the country to pollute less...