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Firefighting foam heats up coal fire debate (2010)
- joshstrange 8y agoI've read about this fire before and on the surface it seems crazy to think we have all of these underground fires happening that no one really thinks or cares about. I understand how we got to where we are but it still makes me stop in amazement that this is a thing that is actively happening.
- azurezyq 8y agoIt's actually already taken care of. Basically, most of them are beyond what the current technology can achieve. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_seam_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_seam_fire This is a good read. So the one mentioned in OP may work for some but it may be only useful for very limited set of these fires. We know too little about things under the surface. I'd say we have zero chance to conquer them until we can have a deep earth CT (just like CT of your brain). 60M for a technology which would be the future, yes. 60M for something only works for a few limited cases, probably not.
- dmix 8y agoHow far along are we with ground penetrating radar? I’d imagine if they struggle to find tunnels dug under borders of high tech countries that they will probably struggle with these.
- burfog 8y agoYou could look via seismographs and small explosions, as is done for some kinds of resource exploration. Plain old drilling is pretty effective though.
- hutzlibu 8y ago"It's actually already taken care of." It is? A big coal fire that burned on a area of 80ha last time they checked in 1983 estimated to burn up to an area of 1500 ha is only priority number 2 to the agency. So to me the problem seems far from being taken care of. "The last detailed study of the fire was in 1983 ... GAI found that the fire was spread over almost 80 hectares, and estimated it could eventually burn close to 1,500 hectares. "
- nasmorn 8y agoReally crazy how untold billions are spent on climate change mitigation and they can’t raise the 60m to put out this fire.
- dang 8y agoPlease don't take HN threads on generic flamewar tangents. They lead to the local equivalent of coal fires. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- nasmorn 8y agoSorry I actually meant it is tragic that this cannot be funded given that it is such a high climate change priority according to the article. The mitigation would be fairly cheap and long lasting, it might burn another 50 years
- throwaway2048 8y agoThe thing is, many things have been tried, nothing has been particularly effective.
- codewritinfool 8y agoHow much is a fire like this contributing to CO2 emissions? Seems like 60 million is a small price to pay if it stops ongoing burning and combustion products.
- GlenTheMachine 8y agoI don't think that's how it works. Coal is fungible, and is not in short supply. Putting out the fire would not increase the amount of coal being used industrially, nor would it decrease the cost of coal. It would just eliminate one of many sources of CO2. So a net win in global warming terms.
- function_seven 8y agoParent comment is saying as much. $60mm to put out this fire is worth it in order to eliminate a CO2 source.
- codewritinfool 8y agoEither I'm not reading what you wrote correctly, or you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm saying put it out. Less CO2 released.
- jcranmer 8y agoI've tried running the numbers, but actually finding numbers is hard here. If I'm understanding the sources correctly, the coal seam on fire in Centralia is about 3700 acres in total size, and coal seams seem to be only a few feet thick generally. Plugging in 8 feet for a thickness (which I think includes a large amount of non-coal rock, but I don't know the recoverable fraction so I'll estimate 100% of it to be coal), I get that the total CO2 production of burning all of it would be about 7 million metric tonnes of CO2. That would be for the entire lifetime of the fire. So one coal seam fire would produce about 0.2% of the US's yearly CO2 emissions. Keeping in mind that these fires last for decades, that would suggest that coal seem fires account for less than 1% and probably less than 0.1% of CO2 emissions.
- btrettel 8y ago
- gwmullin 8y agoCan we not just start a gofundme campaign for this and bypass the government funding decisions?
- recursive 8y agoWe can.
- ape4 8y agoIts coal fire day on Hacker News! (there was another post about a possible coal fire on the Titanic)
- dmix 8y agoThat’s not a conicidence
- Johnny555 8y agoI think it's safe to say that that one has been extinguished!
- Skunkleton 8y agoThis one will sort itself out. Once sea levels rise high enough, the mine will be submerged and the fire will go out.
- nostrademons 8y agoSea level rise if all ice melts: 230 ft. Sea level rise to historical maximum: 660 ft. (100m years ago; the difference is largely because of thermal expansion of water and changing shape of ocean basins.) Elevation of Centralia, PA: 1467 ft.
- Skunkleton 8y agoOk fine, I guess we have to do something about this.
- nostrademons 8y agoNuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago"We got ourselves a pretty big fire. Gonna need a huge bang." https://youtu.be/U8Vh3h9i2Uk?t=37 https://youtu.be/U8Vh3h9i2Uk?t=37
- ars 8y agoThis article is from 2010 - any update in the last 8 years? Here's his facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/541222132634503/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/541222132634503/ The company website is down, but he's posting. I suspect he's still trying but his company no longer is.
- Lobsterosity 8y agoMost recent I can find: https://www.history.com/news/mine-fire-burning-more-50-years-ghost-town https://www.history.com/news/mine-fire-burning-more-50-years... Kind of a bum article but no progress as far as I can tell. Recent court case re gov't attempt to kick last citizens out. They got a settlement and are allowed to stay until they die at which time gov't will take land via eminent domain. https://wnep.com/2013/10/30/agreement-reached-with-remaing-centralia-residents/ https://wnep.com/2013/10/30/agreement-reached-with-remaing-c...
- mirimir 8y agoI have one quibble. > Using water can cause steam explosions. It's actually worse than that. 2(C) + O2 + H2O → CO + CO2 + H2 So you have a H2/CO explosion. That's what happened at Chernobyl. Very hot graphite moderator, plus cooling water. Edit: lose extra O
- Gibbon1 8y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_gas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_gas
- Skunkleton 8y agoTo be fair, some other things also happened at Chernobyl.
- mirimir 8y agoTrue. But wasn't it the hydrogen explosion that popped the containment? Not that there was all that much containment, in any case.
- honestoHeminway 8y agoEisenschwammdampfdruckhydrolyse Steam plus a red-hot glowing Oxidator produce Hydrogen. They used that to fire mortars in WW1 on the eastern front, just very fine milled scrap and coaled wood. You can not run out of ammo, if you only fire payloads and available materials.
- i_feel_great 8y ago"Coal fires are a problem all over the world. Such fires endanger nearby communities, waste precious resources and produce tons of noxious and greenhouse gases. Centralia is not the only coal fire burning in the United States. In fact, it’s just one of 38 burning in Pennsylvania alone. The hundreds of underground fires in the United States, from Pennsylvania to Alabama to Wyoming, combined with the thousands thought to be burning in China, India and elsewhere, are one of the largest sources of carbon dioxide and pollution on Earth." What really?
- gpm 8y agoWikipedia claims they account for 3% of CO2 emissions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_seam_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_seam_fire (at the end of the intro paragraphs)
- EamonnMR 8y agoConsidering that they're a pure nuisance with no economic value and plenty of danger due to area denial, and 3% is nothing to sneeze at, that would suggest that they should be a priority to greenhouse gas reduction.
- gambiting 8y agoLike with everything else, the question is always the same - who pays for it?
- krasin 8y agoOne can compare such permanent fires with a dragon that lives near a village and eats people from time to time. And every time, it takes a reward from a village chief to find a hero and kill the dragon. Why doesn't any of the states with coal fires offer a monetary prize to stop such fires? Put money on the table, and a hero (in a form of a robotic firefighting startup) will come.
- sandworm101 8y ago
- EGreg 8y agoCan’t they just enclose it so it uses up all the oxygen? Or detonate charges?
- wheelerwj 8y agoif you knew all of the entrances and didn't have to worry about permeation, sure. But who really knows how many possible places air is entering that fire.
- EamonnMR 8y agoThere are uncharted mine shafts, some where homes used to be because people would mine under their basements. There are also sinkholes which you can see in pictures of the highway.
- EGreg 8y agoCan’t you map those by seeing where air is still flowing in? Release some dust and map its flow. Or better yet just cover the surface with foam.
- throwaway2048 8y agoIts not just mineshafts where it burns, it burns directly underground where it has never been mined before due to permeable rock.
- EamonnMR 8y agoFor an exhaustive account of the fire: https://www.amazon.com/Fire-Underground-Ongoing-Tragedy-Centralia/dp/0762754273 https://www.amazon.com/Fire-Underground-Ongoing-Tragedy-Cent... For a similar fire that was eventually contained: https://www.amazon.com/West-Carbondale-Pennsylvania-Heritage-Books/dp/1589662121 https://www.amazon.com/West-Carbondale-Pennsylvania-Heritage... Both are very interesting reading if you find these as fascinating as I do.
- cf498 8y agohttps://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fire-in-the-hole-77895126/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fire-in-the-ho... I heard about the phenomenon before, but was stumped how long they can burn. >Many ancient fires like those still burn, from the Canadian Arctic to southeast Australia. Scientists estimate that Australia’s BurningMountain, the oldest known coal fire, has burned for 6,000 years. In the 19th century, explorers mistook the smoking summit for a volcano.
- rosshemsley 8y agoCould this actually be a profitable business, selling carbon offsets?