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> I've come to the conclusion that Agile development processes do not represent a real-world solution. I think one of the problems regarding this whole discuss

> I've come to the conclusion that Agile development processes do not represent a real-world solution. I think one of the problems regarding this whole discussion, whenever it stirs up, is that Agile (as defined in the original manifesto) is explicitly not about any particular processes, but still most of the critique against Agile seems to actually be against different kinds of "agile processes". The manifesto explicitly states "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools". In real world, one of course needs actual processes, and all kinds of consults are trying to ride the wave to lucrative contracts. But since the Agile Manifesto is about values, not processes, you cannot steal it from its creators. You can pervert the meaning and utilize some braindead processes in your company and call them "agile", but that doesn't lessen the worth of the original values. I know that that's a highly unsatisfactory answer, a kind of a cop-out, but I think applying more to Agile than it's meant to be is part of the problems surrounding it today. Edit: those "you"s are meant for passive voice. No personal offense or commentary meant.

blub 8y ago
The road from Agile values to having something that can be used to ship quality software is way too long. "Eat well and do sports" is correct, yet ineffectual advice, since many countries still have a big problem with obesity, diabetes and other modern diseases. There are two things undermining "the values" in practice: 1) The economic and social environment doesn't encourage an engineering/scientific approach to SW development. Nor does it encourage eating well or having an active lifestyle. 2) People need a lot of help to implement those fuzzy, high-level values and will always reach for some process / diet / plan. All things considered, it's probably better to be agile, but how do you actually deliver a quality, successful SW project? Let's talk about that instead of fuzzy old Agile.
- shandor 8y ago
  I agree with your conclusion fully. Also your link to "eat well and do sports" is kind of exactly what I was after. I mean no one is saying that eating well is bad for your health, right? What I was trying to convey is that I think similarly of the Agile Manifesto itself. Because we shouldn't infer that eating well is bad because a lot of people try to eat well and are still obese, we shouldn't infer that Agile as in the Manifesto is bad because lots of companies get burned by Scrum. We should be coming to conclusions like "hey, maybe this Scrum thing we tried is shit, let's try some other process that seems to align with these fuzzy agile values we believe in". The problem I have with the current discourse around the matter is that as long as we keep bashing "The Agile Values" when we mean "agile processes as implemented in framework ZZZ", we are not having the discussion of "hey, which process would align better with these values while letting us ship quality software rapidly".

blub 8y ago

The road from Agile values to having something that can be used to ship quality software is way too long. "Eat well and do sports" is correct, yet ineffectual advice, since many countries still have a big problem with obesity, diabetes and other modern diseases. There are two things undermining "the values" in practice: 1) The economic and social environment doesn't encourage an engineering/scientific approach to SW development. Nor does it encourage eating well or having an active lifestyle. 2) People need a lot of help to implement those fuzzy, high-level values and will always reach for some process / diet / plan. All things considered, it's probably better to be agile, but how do you actually deliver a quality, successful SW project? Let's talk about that instead of fuzzy old Agile.

shandor 8y ago
I agree with your conclusion fully. Also your link to "eat well and do sports" is kind of exactly what I was after. I mean no one is saying that eating well is bad for your health, right? What I was trying to convey is that I think similarly of the Agile Manifesto itself. Because we shouldn't infer that eating well is bad because a lot of people try to eat well and are still obese, we shouldn't infer that Agile as in the Manifesto is bad because lots of companies get burned by Scrum. We should be coming to conclusions like "hey, maybe this Scrum thing we tried is shit, let's try some other process that seems to align with these fuzzy agile values we believe in". The problem I have with the current discourse around the matter is that as long as we keep bashing "The Agile Values" when we mean "agile processes as implemented in framework ZZZ", we are not having the discussion of "hey, which process would align better with these values while letting us ship quality software rapidly".