4 ms·

Well I don’t know about tech, but multiple swiss banks have had internal advisories against visit to the US, as some of their employees have been arrested.

by ahakki 8y ago

sonnyblarney 8y ago
Swiss banks have been hiding assets of people worldwide and many nations consider that a crime. So yes, if you're helping Americans cheat on their taxes, you're going to get arrested. So the 'advisory' would be: don't break laws.
- NTDF9 8y ago
  > So the 'advisory' would be: don't break laws. Whose laws? Why should the Swiss follow US laws? What if the US establishes arbitrary laws? Should the Swiss still follow those laws?
  - tomp 8y ago
    But that's the point, no? Swiss have their own laws (hiding assets), US have their own laws (arresting people who hide assets), seems perfectly fair. Personally, I wish no developed (e.g. EU, US) country would allow any economic relationship with any country that allows tax avoidance (like 0% tax) or tax evasion (like bank secrecy).
    - NTDF9 8y ago
      > Personally, I wish no developed (e.g. EU, US) country would allow any economic relationship with any country that allows tax avoidance (like 0% tax) or tax evasion (like bank secrecy). But US allows huge tax deductions for businesses. Maybe other countries don't? Wouldn't they have a right to say, "Personally, I wish no developed (e.g. EU, US) country would allow any economic relationship with any country that allows unfair deductions or tax evasion (like states give to Amazon).
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      Tax avoidance is fine. That's for the government to sort out. As for " Swiss have their own laws (hiding assets)," - not really. UBS et. al. are not supposed to be helping Americans evade paying taxes - by their own law.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    Money laundering and tax evasion are not 'arbitrary' laws.
    - NTDF9 8y ago
      > Money laundering and tax evasion are not 'arbitrary' laws. Please define tax evasion. If country X's government legally authorizes a tax provision like mortgage deduction for tax reduction or tax-free interest or tax breaks for S-corps or tax reduction for exported payments, are these all tax evasion? When people talk about companies evading taxes, they're really working through the tax code. Some countries have positive balance sheets and very little debt. They can afford to give companies tax breaks.
      - sonnyblarney 8y ago
        Tax evasion is simple: people not paying the taxes they are owed to the government. What you are referring to is tax avoidance or minimization, which is fine (or rather, another problem, mostly the governments) "When people talk about companies evading taxes, they're really working through the tax code." Switzerland facilitates tons of actual tax evasion, which they are not supposed to do, and which is illegal in the US. From [1] "the Swiss financial sector and the DoJ began a decade ago when whistleblower Bradley Birkenfeld provided evidence that his former employer, UBS, was helping wealthy Americans evade taxes. Switzerland’s largest bank was fined $780 million in 2009, but it was later discovered that other Swiss banks had been poaching UBS clients after the criminal probe had been announced. " Switzerland is party to many treaties with EU, US etc. - and they (gov. and banks) know exactly that they cannot facilitate tax evasion, if so, it becomes a crime. This is not ambiguous. If you, living in Switzerland, help facilitate a crime such as murder (i.e. totally unambiguous) in the US, then the US will extradite you even though you may not have broken any Swiss laws. Tax evasion is a crime like any other, hence extradition and arrests etc.. Though some cases may have some ambiguity i.e. (what constitutes 'aid' and maybe some hairline differences between 'evasion' and 'avoidance') - in general, it's crystal clear: if you help people with tax evasion, you've committed a crime. And FYI - the reciprocal works just the same - if you murder someone in Switzerland, but have not broken and US laws, you can be sure that the Americans will arrest you and send you to Switzerland if that's what the Swiss authorities want. [1] https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/-5-million-fine_swiss-bank-settles-us-tax-evasion-probe/44267588 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/-5-million-fine_swiss-bank-sett...

Well I don’t know about tech, but multiple swiss banks have had internal advisories against visit to the US, as some of their employees have been arrested.

by ahakki 8y ago

Well I don’t know about tech, but multiple swiss banks have had internal advisories against visit to the US, as some of their employees have been arrested.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

Swiss banks have been hiding assets of people worldwide and many nations consider that a crime. So yes, if you're helping Americans cheat on their taxes, you're going to get arrested. So the 'advisory' would be: don't break laws.

NTDF9 8y ago
> So the 'advisory' would be: don't break laws. Whose laws? Why should the Swiss follow US laws? What if the US establishes arbitrary laws? Should the Swiss still follow those laws?
- tomp 8y ago
  But that's the point, no? Swiss have their own laws (hiding assets), US have their own laws (arresting people who hide assets), seems perfectly fair. Personally, I wish no developed (e.g. EU, US) country would allow any economic relationship with any country that allows tax avoidance (like 0% tax) or tax evasion (like bank secrecy).
  - NTDF9 8y ago
    > Personally, I wish no developed (e.g. EU, US) country would allow any economic relationship with any country that allows tax avoidance (like 0% tax) or tax evasion (like bank secrecy). But US allows huge tax deductions for businesses. Maybe other countries don't? Wouldn't they have a right to say, "Personally, I wish no developed (e.g. EU, US) country would allow any economic relationship with any country that allows unfair deductions or tax evasion (like states give to Amazon).
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    Tax avoidance is fine. That's for the government to sort out. As for " Swiss have their own laws (hiding assets)," - not really. UBS et. al. are not supposed to be helping Americans evade paying taxes - by their own law.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  Money laundering and tax evasion are not 'arbitrary' laws.
  - NTDF9 8y ago
    > Money laundering and tax evasion are not 'arbitrary' laws. Please define tax evasion. If country X's government legally authorizes a tax provision like mortgage deduction for tax reduction or tax-free interest or tax breaks for S-corps or tax reduction for exported payments, are these all tax evasion? When people talk about companies evading taxes, they're really working through the tax code. Some countries have positive balance sheets and very little debt. They can afford to give companies tax breaks.
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      Tax evasion is simple: people not paying the taxes they are owed to the government. What you are referring to is tax avoidance or minimization, which is fine (or rather, another problem, mostly the governments) "When people talk about companies evading taxes, they're really working through the tax code." Switzerland facilitates tons of actual tax evasion, which they are not supposed to do, and which is illegal in the US. From [1] "the Swiss financial sector and the DoJ began a decade ago when whistleblower Bradley Birkenfeld provided evidence that his former employer, UBS, was helping wealthy Americans evade taxes. Switzerland’s largest bank was fined $780 million in 2009, but it was later discovered that other Swiss banks had been poaching UBS clients after the criminal probe had been announced. " Switzerland is party to many treaties with EU, US etc. - and they (gov. and banks) know exactly that they cannot facilitate tax evasion, if so, it becomes a crime. This is not ambiguous. If you, living in Switzerland, help facilitate a crime such as murder (i.e. totally unambiguous) in the US, then the US will extradite you even though you may not have broken any Swiss laws. Tax evasion is a crime like any other, hence extradition and arrests etc.. Though some cases may have some ambiguity i.e. (what constitutes 'aid' and maybe some hairline differences between 'evasion' and 'avoidance') - in general, it's crystal clear: if you help people with tax evasion, you've committed a crime. And FYI - the reciprocal works just the same - if you murder someone in Switzerland, but have not broken and US laws, you can be sure that the Americans will arrest you and send you to Switzerland if that's what the Swiss authorities want. [1] https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/-5-million-fine_swiss-bank-settles-us-tax-evasion-probe/44267588 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/-5-million-fine_swiss-bank-sett...