3 ms·

An amusing read, but there's been 15 years between this essay and the Social Network, and the stereotype of hackers as socially maladjusted, unshowered nerds ha

by nhashem 16y ago

An amusing read, but there's been 15 years between this essay and the Social Network, and the stereotype of hackers as socially maladjusted, unshowered nerds hasn't changed much in 15 years (except maybe we're considered maladjusted, unshowered, rich nerds). Will we ever get to the point where mass media realizes there we are capable of doing things like dating an attractive woman... without even needing to shower her with money we've scored big in our IPO?

jonnathanson 16y ago
I've worked on quite a few teams of nerdy hackers, as I suspect you have and many of us have, and let's take a look around and be honest: for the most part, the stereotype still holds. For the most part. Are things trending, if slowly, in the other direction? Perhaps. But we have a long, long way to go in a galaxy far away before your average hacker is dating attractive women.
- electromagnetic 16y ago
  I don't believe nerds are becoming any less stereotypical, I just believe more and more people are becoming nerdy. As more generations are born, technology becomes more ingrained. I'm in my 20's, we grew up with technology. I was navigating DOS at 4. My wife remembers using Amigas. I don't have to ask anyone my age if they know how to use '...' because they do, it's innate. You give your average 50 year old a new piece of technology and they're lost. Simply take video games. The amount of people who play are now astounding. I know girls that play CoD, who WoW, who're making levels on LBP, who were excited when SC2 came out. For my generation I expect a lot of nerds will be dating attractive female nerds.
  - jonnathanson 16y ago
    True, but we must keep in mind that the definition of "nerdy" isn't static either. Nerds operate at the fringes (we can call them bleeding edges if we're feeling self-generous!) of interests and culture. MMORPGs may no longer be the exclusive domain of nerds these days, but there are other things to fill the void. The revival of old-school hardware hacking and homebrew hobbyism, for example. Or hard sci-fi. Or the latest and greatest tech in general (and obviously I don't mean mainstream tech). Nerds are also defined by a sort of intense interest level in their given fields. (Not coincidentally, Asperger's follows a similar diagnostic consideration set). A non-nerd may play Civ5, but will a non-nerd ever mod Civ5? Will a non-nerd ever intentionally hack the AI to improve the realism of diplomacy in Civ5, or to script out realistic reenactments of the Cold War? I did those things, and I really doubt a "normal" would have done them. I'm sure you have similar passions, projects, quirks, hobbies, interests, etc. -- that unique combination of traits that will always set you apart as a nerd. Yes, in theory, these days it's a lot more socially acceptable for you to wear that nerdery as a badge of honor. But that's theory, and then there's praxis. I find that most non-nerds pay lip service to nerd-chic, but they won't actually walk the walk. I really doubt a non-nerd will ever entertain a conversation with me about artificial intelligence or string theory.
- 9oliYQjP 16y ago
  In high school, when my algebra teacher found out I was attending a semi-formal that he was chaperoning, he said "Really? You're taking a girl? Good for you." I showed up and when he saw who I was with, his jaw literally dropped. I had one of the hottest girls as my high school sweetheart. We won a "cutest couple" award that night. We dated for 3 years. I know a lot of hackers (of either sex) with attractive partners. It's not hacking that's unsexy. My girlfriend encouraged me to play on the computer so long as she got the attention she needed too. She loved it when I built her a computer (it was completely purple in the 1990s, a rare machine). She even played a few Quake 2 death matches online with me. But sometimes hackers are unconfident. That's a universal turnoff. After I dated that girl I went years without finding another girlfriend because I'd totally lost confidence in myself. Get some confidence, and even a computer programmer can get an attractive partner. I thought this was thoroughly documented in The Game :-)
  - jonnathanson 16y ago
    Well, yes. It's not that hacking in and of itself is not sexy; it's that hackers and social awkwardness tend to be fairly highly correlated. That doesn't mean hackers, as a categorical rule, must be scrawny and squirrely and awkward. But a lot of us are. I don't consider myself to be, nor do I fault those who are for being that way. I just think we'd be slightly naive to assume the myth of the nerdy hacker is no longer reflective of reality whatsoever.
Dylanlacey 16y ago
I agree with what you're saying 100%, but I think the stereotype is still re-enforced in some ways. I have noticed that the "Management Types" Card is describing still treat their employees as lesser beings, not because they're hackers, but because they're employees. And they have the same outdated ideas, like "Pay them a bit more" or "give them a family fun day!", and other stuff that programmers are a bit more cynical about
ora600 16y ago
Some of us can even BE an attractive woman.
- dasil003 16y ago
  Zing! (sorry, couldn't help myself karma be damned)
dkarl 16y ago
Stereotypes that have a kernel of truth will always persist, and there will always be a kernel of truth to the stereotype of the socially maladjusted hacker. Why? Because hacking is relatively friendly ground to them. They can excel, and they will be much less handicapped by their social shortcomings than they would be in other fields. If you want to end the stereotype, you have to make computer programming equally unfriendly to the socially maladjusted, unshowered nerds. That would be a loss. Not only would programming lose valuable contributors, we would turn some number of those talented people into sorry, helpless losers who don't contribute anywhere. And that's the endgame: if every field vigilantly safeguards its social reputation against infiltration by potentially embarrassing nerds, then it will be impossible for nerds to contribute to society at all. For various reasons, hacking is hospitable to nerds: why not leave it that way? If you're uncomfortable being associated with a field that is unusually accommodating of socially inept people, then leave hackerdom and join a field that does a better job of policing itself. There are plenty of those fields, and not many safe havens for dorks. [Edit: I am praying that nobody starts a subthread on the semantics of "nerd" and "dork." Please don't. Just read my comment the way it makes most sense to you.]

by nhashem 16y ago

jonnathanson 16y ago

I've worked on quite a few teams of nerdy hackers, as I suspect you have and many of us have, and let's take a look around and be honest: for the most part, the stereotype still holds. For the most part. Are things trending, if slowly, in the other direction? Perhaps. But we have a long, long way to go in a galaxy far away before your average hacker is dating attractive women.

electromagnetic 16y ago
I don't believe nerds are becoming any less stereotypical, I just believe more and more people are becoming nerdy. As more generations are born, technology becomes more ingrained. I'm in my 20's, we grew up with technology. I was navigating DOS at 4. My wife remembers using Amigas. I don't have to ask anyone my age if they know how to use '...' because they do, it's innate. You give your average 50 year old a new piece of technology and they're lost. Simply take video games. The amount of people who play are now astounding. I know girls that play CoD, who WoW, who're making levels on LBP, who were excited when SC2 came out. For my generation I expect a lot of nerds will be dating attractive female nerds.
- jonnathanson 16y ago
  True, but we must keep in mind that the definition of "nerdy" isn't static either. Nerds operate at the fringes (we can call them bleeding edges if we're feeling self-generous!) of interests and culture. MMORPGs may no longer be the exclusive domain of nerds these days, but there are other things to fill the void. The revival of old-school hardware hacking and homebrew hobbyism, for example. Or hard sci-fi. Or the latest and greatest tech in general (and obviously I don't mean mainstream tech). Nerds are also defined by a sort of intense interest level in their given fields. (Not coincidentally, Asperger's follows a similar diagnostic consideration set). A non-nerd may play Civ5, but will a non-nerd ever mod Civ5? Will a non-nerd ever intentionally hack the AI to improve the realism of diplomacy in Civ5, or to script out realistic reenactments of the Cold War? I did those things, and I really doubt a "normal" would have done them. I'm sure you have similar passions, projects, quirks, hobbies, interests, etc. -- that unique combination of traits that will always set you apart as a nerd. Yes, in theory, these days it's a lot more socially acceptable for you to wear that nerdery as a badge of honor. But that's theory, and then there's praxis. I find that most non-nerds pay lip service to nerd-chic, but they won't actually walk the walk. I really doubt a non-nerd will ever entertain a conversation with me about artificial intelligence or string theory.
9oliYQjP 16y ago
In high school, when my algebra teacher found out I was attending a semi-formal that he was chaperoning, he said "Really? You're taking a girl? Good for you." I showed up and when he saw who I was with, his jaw literally dropped. I had one of the hottest girls as my high school sweetheart. We won a "cutest couple" award that night. We dated for 3 years. I know a lot of hackers (of either sex) with attractive partners. It's not hacking that's unsexy. My girlfriend encouraged me to play on the computer so long as she got the attention she needed too. She loved it when I built her a computer (it was completely purple in the 1990s, a rare machine). She even played a few Quake 2 death matches online with me. But sometimes hackers are unconfident. That's a universal turnoff. After I dated that girl I went years without finding another girlfriend because I'd totally lost confidence in myself. Get some confidence, and even a computer programmer can get an attractive partner. I thought this was thoroughly documented in The Game :-)
- jonnathanson 16y ago
  Well, yes. It's not that hacking in and of itself is not sexy; it's that hackers and social awkwardness tend to be fairly highly correlated. That doesn't mean hackers, as a categorical rule, must be scrawny and squirrely and awkward. But a lot of us are. I don't consider myself to be, nor do I fault those who are for being that way. I just think we'd be slightly naive to assume the myth of the nerdy hacker is no longer reflective of reality whatsoever.

Dylanlacey 16y ago

I agree with what you're saying 100%, but I think the stereotype is still re-enforced in some ways. I have noticed that the "Management Types" Card is describing still treat their employees as lesser beings, not because they're hackers, but because they're employees. And they have the same outdated ideas, like "Pay them a bit more" or "give them a family fun day!", and other stuff that programmers are a bit more cynical about

ora600 16y ago

Some of us can even BE an attractive woman.

dasil003 16y ago
Zing! (sorry, couldn't help myself karma be damned)

dkarl 16y ago

Stereotypes that have a kernel of truth will always persist, and there will always be a kernel of truth to the stereotype of the socially maladjusted hacker. Why? Because hacking is relatively friendly ground to them. They can excel, and they will be much less handicapped by their social shortcomings than they would be in other fields. If you want to end the stereotype, you have to make computer programming equally unfriendly to the socially maladjusted, unshowered nerds. That would be a loss. Not only would programming lose valuable contributors, we would turn some number of those talented people into sorry, helpless losers who don't contribute anywhere. And that's the endgame: if every field vigilantly safeguards its social reputation against infiltration by potentially embarrassing nerds, then it will be impossible for nerds to contribute to society at all. For various reasons, hacking is hospitable to nerds: why not leave it that way? If you're uncomfortable being associated with a field that is unusually accommodating of socially inept people, then leave hackerdom and join a field that does a better job of policing itself. There are plenty of those fields, and not many safe havens for dorks. [Edit: I am praying that nobody starts a subthread on the semantics of "nerd" and "dork." Please don't. Just read my comment the way it makes most sense to you.]