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Outline for us Indochina types: https://outline.com/qUJvaJ https://outline.com/qUJvaJ Quite surprised Canada has gotten itself into this considering the potent

Outline for us Indochina types: https://outline.com/qUJvaJ https://outline.com/qUJvaJ Quite surprised Canada has gotten itself into this considering the potential for escalation which is now playing out. A "NGO worker", possibly of natsec value and now another Canadian national. What did they really expect arresting corporate dynasty? Watching the US and China duke it out in a trade war is somewhat in other countries interest economically, high profile arrests to use as bargaining chips is a risky business and the canucks seem to have thrown themselves right in the midst of it. To add to the absurdity the EU is pushing ahead with maintaining the Iran deal and are indicating their multinationals will continue doing business despite US sanctions.

ahmedalsudani 8y ago
Canada has an extradition agreement with the US. The Canadian government has a duty to uphold its end, which means arrest the individual when the US requests it and investigate the merits of the case. The Justice Department would do the same, though I'm sad to say, as a Canadian, that our prosecutors in Canada seem less interested in high-level white collar crime. (Yes, less interested than their American counterparts, believe it or not.)
- kannanvijayan 8y ago
  I agree with this perspective, with the addendum that the US president's statements might end up working against the prosecutors requesting extradition. It raises the real possibility that Meng's trial in the US would be subject to political or economic considerations as opposed to the legal facts surrounding the foundation of the extradition request - an argument I would expect her lawyers to seize upon. Before the statement by Trump, I was expecting the extradition request being granted. After the statement by Trump, I am more expecting it to be rejected. It is an unfortunate circumstance that Canada's implementation of its laws (specifically extradition laws) has run afoul of China's sensitivities and resulted in what seems to be retaliatory behavoiur. However it would be quite devastating if those considerations factored into our implementation of our laws. Canada should do this by the book, and it seems it will.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > Meng's trial in the US would be subject to political or economic considerations Unlike in China, Canadian and American courts are fiercely independent of the executive.
    - paraditedc 8y ago
      I've seen this brought up quite a lot, but to me, a Chinese national, it's confusing how judiciary branch is independent. Didn't Trump nominate the supreme court justice? And isn't the nomination confirmed by congress? What about the constant conservative vs democrat number battle in the supreme court? Also, didn't Trump himself say that he can intervene in Ms. Meng's case? Edit: Great. Thanks for the downvotes as answers. Now I have a better understanding of how things work in the US.
      - wisdomoftheages 8y ago
        The executive nominates judges, but they hold tenure for life and after confirmation operate with complete independence as a separate branch of government with their own budget etc. The Supreme Court is also irrelevant to this because they do not initiate investigations, they do not oversee prosecutors, and they do not administer the justice system. They only hear cases about Constitutional issues - not criminal issues, so unless there's a constitutional dispute a case has no chance of reaching them. Judges in general do not oversee or initiate prosecutions, U.S. attorneys do. They're also appointed by the executive, but they operate independently and while, subject to Congressional oversight, he can fire some of them (but not the permanent civil servants who are the bulk of the staff), he cannot directly order them to do anything. In any case, an investigation of this complexity almost certainly started under Obama, just because they tend to take many years to reach the stage where charges are filed. Trump frequently claims to have powers that he does not have. He has said many times that he is going to do something only to find that he cannot actually do it, and so it hasn't been done.
      - wybiral 8y ago
        Trump says a lot of things but the system is actually more balanced than the power-play media show makes it seem.
- gcb0 8y ago
  the world doesn't work like that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik power and situation dictates how laws, specially from international treaties, are upheld.
  - ahmedalsudani 8y ago
    [Downvotes for my parent are unwarranted.] It would be naive to believe politics/geopolitics plays no role in the justice system; it would be equally naive to believe rule of law is a sham. I am an immigrant from a place where the legal code is largely a set of tools and pretexts for the powerful. I can assure you that the rule of law is more than just a phrase thrown around by our politicians.
    - tinza123 8y ago
      Not according to Trump tho.
- RidingPegasus 8y ago
  The US has a long history of refusing extradition requests by allies despite overwhelming evidence. It's become a one way street. The UK has blocked extradition to the US before even though the guilt is assured[0], the alleged crimes here are nothing in comparison. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon#British_government_blocks_extradition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon#British_governme...
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > the alleged crimes here are nothing in comparison Willfully violating sanctions is a serious crime.
    - lechiffre10 8y ago
      Sanctions imposed by the U.S that hold no merit according to WTO or International law aren't even legal and are in fact considered an act of war. The only crime committed here is by the U.S.
      - briandon 8y ago
        Meng's arrest is for actions she allegedly took to help Iran evade sanctions years ago, during the period in which U.N. sanctions on Iran were in force. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-07/huawei-s-unofficial-skycom-allegedly-used-to-break-sanctions https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-07/huawei-s-...
      - sonnyblarney 8y ago
        The US sanctions limiting export of US tech to Iran have nothing to do with the WTO or 'International Law'. Meng has apparently comitted a serious crime according to US law by exporting US-made tech to Iran. If this is proven to be true, she's clearly violating the law, and surely knowingly so.
    - RidingPegasus 8y ago
      UN sanctions were lifted on 16 January 2016. The US unilaterally decided in May this year they want to pull out of that agreement. The EU is still pushing ahead to have their largest companies trading with Iran despite American protestations. We both know nothing will happen to Daimler or Societe General execs.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
"What did they really expect arresting corporate dynasty?" Justice? Transparency? Rule of law? Freedom of conscience and expression? 'Doing business with Iran' is not what she was arrested for - she was arrested for proving tech made in the USA to Iran, which is definitely a different thing. Grated it was very low tech.
- 0xb33fdead 8y ago
  Okay, hold up. "grated it was very low tech"; where did you learn about this (or is this an opinionated downplay)?
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    The tech she exported was HP gear - I'm not aware of anything specifically that HP make that is particularly high tech.
- RidingPegasus 8y ago
  > Crown counsel told a Friday bail hearing in B.C. Supreme Court in Vancouver Friday that Meng is "charged with conspiracy to defraud multiple international institutions" https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bail-hearing-huawei-cfo-1.4936150 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bail-hearing... Do you foresee extradition requests for EU executives doing business with Iran? https://www.dw.com/en/eu-plan-to-sidestep-iran-sanctions-how-will-it-work/a-45647007 https://www.dw.com/en/eu-plan-to-sidestep-iran-sanctions-how...
  - wisdomoftheages 8y ago
    The crime is not trading with Iran, the crime is defrauding the US financial system in order to do it. For some reason, this is framed as though Huawei is accused of trading with Iran completely independently of the United States. That's not the case at all.
    - RidingPegasus 8y ago
wisdomoftheages 8y ago
The idea that Meng was arrested as part of a ploy in the 'trade war' is completely unfounded. These investigations take years and are initiated by the independent justice system. Trump can run his mouth off as much as he likes, but the U.S. system is not structured like China and the executive does not have supreme authority to direct arrests and prosecutions.

ahmedalsudani 8y ago

Canada has an extradition agreement with the US. The Canadian government has a duty to uphold its end, which means arrest the individual when the US requests it and investigate the merits of the case. The Justice Department would do the same, though I'm sad to say, as a Canadian, that our prosecutors in Canada seem less interested in high-level white collar crime. (Yes, less interested than their American counterparts, believe it or not.)

kannanvijayan 8y ago
I agree with this perspective, with the addendum that the US president's statements might end up working against the prosecutors requesting extradition. It raises the real possibility that Meng's trial in the US would be subject to political or economic considerations as opposed to the legal facts surrounding the foundation of the extradition request - an argument I would expect her lawyers to seize upon. Before the statement by Trump, I was expecting the extradition request being granted. After the statement by Trump, I am more expecting it to be rejected. It is an unfortunate circumstance that Canada's implementation of its laws (specifically extradition laws) has run afoul of China's sensitivities and resulted in what seems to be retaliatory behavoiur. However it would be quite devastating if those considerations factored into our implementation of our laws. Canada should do this by the book, and it seems it will.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > Meng's trial in the US would be subject to political or economic considerations Unlike in China, Canadian and American courts are fiercely independent of the executive.
  - paraditedc 8y ago
    I've seen this brought up quite a lot, but to me, a Chinese national, it's confusing how judiciary branch is independent. Didn't Trump nominate the supreme court justice? And isn't the nomination confirmed by congress? What about the constant conservative vs democrat number battle in the supreme court? Also, didn't Trump himself say that he can intervene in Ms. Meng's case? Edit: Great. Thanks for the downvotes as answers. Now I have a better understanding of how things work in the US.
    - wisdomoftheages 8y ago
      The executive nominates judges, but they hold tenure for life and after confirmation operate with complete independence as a separate branch of government with their own budget etc. The Supreme Court is also irrelevant to this because they do not initiate investigations, they do not oversee prosecutors, and they do not administer the justice system. They only hear cases about Constitutional issues - not criminal issues, so unless there's a constitutional dispute a case has no chance of reaching them. Judges in general do not oversee or initiate prosecutions, U.S. attorneys do. They're also appointed by the executive, but they operate independently and while, subject to Congressional oversight, he can fire some of them (but not the permanent civil servants who are the bulk of the staff), he cannot directly order them to do anything. In any case, an investigation of this complexity almost certainly started under Obama, just because they tend to take many years to reach the stage where charges are filed. Trump frequently claims to have powers that he does not have. He has said many times that he is going to do something only to find that he cannot actually do it, and so it hasn't been done.
    - wybiral 8y ago
      Trump says a lot of things but the system is actually more balanced than the power-play media show makes it seem.
gcb0 8y ago
the world doesn't work like that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik power and situation dictates how laws, specially from international treaties, are upheld.
- ahmedalsudani 8y ago
  [Downvotes for my parent are unwarranted.] It would be naive to believe politics/geopolitics plays no role in the justice system; it would be equally naive to believe rule of law is a sham. I am an immigrant from a place where the legal code is largely a set of tools and pretexts for the powerful. I can assure you that the rule of law is more than just a phrase thrown around by our politicians.
  - tinza123 8y ago
    Not according to Trump tho.
RidingPegasus 8y ago
The US has a long history of refusing extradition requests by allies despite overwhelming evidence. It's become a one way street. The UK has blocked extradition to the US before even though the guilt is assured[0], the alleged crimes here are nothing in comparison. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon#British_government_blocks_extradition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon#British_governme...
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > the alleged crimes here are nothing in comparison Willfully violating sanctions is a serious crime.
  - lechiffre10 8y ago
    Sanctions imposed by the U.S that hold no merit according to WTO or International law aren't even legal and are in fact considered an act of war. The only crime committed here is by the U.S.
    - briandon 8y ago
      Meng's arrest is for actions she allegedly took to help Iran evade sanctions years ago, during the period in which U.N. sanctions on Iran were in force. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-07/huawei-s-unofficial-skycom-allegedly-used-to-break-sanctions https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-07/huawei-s-...
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      The US sanctions limiting export of US tech to Iran have nothing to do with the WTO or 'International Law'. Meng has apparently comitted a serious crime according to US law by exporting US-made tech to Iran. If this is proven to be true, she's clearly violating the law, and surely knowingly so.
  - RidingPegasus 8y ago
    UN sanctions were lifted on 16 January 2016. The US unilaterally decided in May this year they want to pull out of that agreement. The EU is still pushing ahead to have their largest companies trading with Iran despite American protestations. We both know nothing will happen to Daimler or Societe General execs.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

"What did they really expect arresting corporate dynasty?" Justice? Transparency? Rule of law? Freedom of conscience and expression? 'Doing business with Iran' is not what she was arrested for - she was arrested for proving tech made in the USA to Iran, which is definitely a different thing. Grated it was very low tech.

0xb33fdead 8y ago
Okay, hold up. "grated it was very low tech"; where did you learn about this (or is this an opinionated downplay)?
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  The tech she exported was HP gear - I'm not aware of anything specifically that HP make that is particularly high tech.
RidingPegasus 8y ago
> Crown counsel told a Friday bail hearing in B.C. Supreme Court in Vancouver Friday that Meng is "charged with conspiracy to defraud multiple international institutions" https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bail-hearing-huawei-cfo-1.4936150 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bail-hearing... Do you foresee extradition requests for EU executives doing business with Iran? https://www.dw.com/en/eu-plan-to-sidestep-iran-sanctions-how-will-it-work/a-45647007 https://www.dw.com/en/eu-plan-to-sidestep-iran-sanctions-how...
- wisdomoftheages 8y ago
  The crime is not trading with Iran, the crime is defrauding the US financial system in order to do it. For some reason, this is framed as though Huawei is accused of trading with Iran completely independently of the United States. That's not the case at all.
  - RidingPegasus 8y ago

wisdomoftheages 8y ago

The idea that Meng was arrested as part of a ploy in the 'trade war' is completely unfounded. These investigations take years and are initiated by the independent justice system. Trump can run his mouth off as much as he likes, but the U.S. system is not structured like China and the executive does not have supreme authority to direct arrests and prosecutions.