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Fair enough, but the comment is not meant to denigrate the teacher. I would much rather see a system that paid teachers appropriate salaries for their skill se

Fair enough, but the comment is not meant to denigrate the teacher. I would much rather see a system that paid teachers appropriate salaries for their skill sets so that they could get qualified educators instead of the least common denominator. Why should qualified high-tech people work for substandard salaries? You can say out of the goodness of our hearts, but if the service they provide is valuable enough, and I think it is, they should be compensated appropriately.

thaumaturgy 16y ago
Clifford Stoll has explained this far better than I could [1], but aside from the sheer intrinsic value and altruism of taking time out to be an amazing teacher for some students, it can also serve some really practical benefits: if you want the next generation of adults to have a firm grasp of science and technical issues -- whether they later operate a cash register, enter a career in politics, or build the next Amazon -- then it makes sense for us to find the time to teach these skills to students. If you want open source software to take over the world, teach programming to kids. If you want sensible social policies where science and technology are concerned, then teach science and technology to kids. If you want more rational discourse in the future, then teach logic to kids. Saying, "this is somebody else's job" -- even if you're also saying that it's a valuable job and they should be compensated well for it -- is not just self-serving, it's short-sighted. [1]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj8IA6xOpSk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj8IA6xOpSk
- Retric 16y ago
  <evil>I don't care about future generations, if you want me to teach you need to pay me real money to do so.</evil> Clearly there are people willing to significantly sacrifice their family's financial future for the good of the community. However, there are not enough such people. Thus paying more money allows you to pull in talented people who don't feel the need to sacrifice for their community. PS: You don't actually need to pay market rates. You just need to reduce the sacrifice enough to attract talented people. EX: I would be willing to take a small paycut to do scientific research, but I am unwilling to take the massive paycut it would take to do so.
  - thaumaturgy 16y ago
    Then you all are getting exactly the world that you deserve.
    - marvin 16y ago
      You can sit on your high horse forever if you want, but altruism only works when everyone is altruistic. Do you really expect technically competent people to work in an environment where free thought and initiative is punished and bureaucratic nonsense is everywhere...while being paid a third (or less!) of what they would be paid in the industry? That's the choice potential teachers like me face. Personally, I would love to teach, but the pain just isn't worth it. The choice seems like a no-brainer. Going into teaching would be stupid because (1) I'd be miserable if I had to fight the bureucracy (2) said bureocracy would prevent me from having the full impact I could have as an instructor and (3) I wouldn't be anywhere near properly compensated. Is that much pain really worth the joy of making a small difference? You're selling yourself short to a stupid and old-fashioned system. Perhaps changing this would be possible if there was some parallel school system that was completely private and received support from the government in addition to fees from students/parents. Ironically, this is the system we currently have i Norway, but the creation of new private schools is in practice outlawed by the government..severely restricting the possible avenues of teaching and probably limiting the wages of the teachers who want to work there.
      - thaumaturgy 16y ago
        > ...but altruism only works when everyone is altruistic. Not a big fan of open source then, I take it? Or volunteerism in general? > Perhaps changing this would be possible if there was some parallel school system that was completely private and received support from the government in addition to fees from students/parents. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school Also, after-school programs. Or, getting involved in a school board. There are numerous and ample opportunities for someone with the means and motivation, but I think the real issue here is: > I wouldn't be anywhere near properly compensated. I've been wrestling around lately with an ever-widening sense of dismay I have at HN; it's only a problem for me because it's the last community of sorts that I participate in. There are numerous other hobbies and interests that all have their own groups of people, but the advantage to online communities is that they're always there when you need them and not there when you don't. Anyway, I was whining to a good friend recently about this, because I'm having some trouble adjusting to the idea of not being a member of any communities anymore, and he tried to tell me, "Fuck the money-chasers." I fundamentally can't relate to what seems to be the majority here on certain issues. It doesn't at all make sense to me that anyone could have this thought process that goes, "Here is a problem ... and I will complain about it ... and I have the power to change it ... but I won't." How do you think bureaucracies change? They change when enough strong-willed individuals get involved. Are you waiting for them to change themselves? Nothing changes all by itself; every single improvement in society is brought about by someone who worked for that change. Where do you think the funding for teachers comes from? Teachers get their funding from voters, and all voters have been students. If students don't go through school and see, really see, that there was value in their education, then they won't be motivated to vote to spend more money on it. The silliest thing is that we're constantly surrounded by examples of altruism working. The recent "offer HN" series -- which seems to have died out now -- were triggered by just a couple of people choosing to donate their efforts. The recent popular memorial post for Luke Bucklin and family (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1861964 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1861964) is another example of the impact that a little bit of altruism can have. And then there's you. I don't think we could ever reach a point of mutual understanding on this topic, because -- and I mean this with no disrespect -- nobody can afford to pay you enough to be altruistic. It looks like more people here see your point of view than mine. How could I expect to be able to get usable advice on my business from HN then? The odds of my finding anyone here that would understand my motivations and limitations are looking pretty slim. There seems to be a rampant social disease right now, where "hard" problems are concerned, in which those are always somebody else's problem. A lot of talented people are happy to pour effort into building social networks and other trendy things, because there's money and prestige in that, but when it comes to problems like education, public policy, government, and community development -- those are all somebody else's problem. That makes me a little bit concerned for the future. Anyway, this is probably all just a colossal waste of my time and yours. I haven't got anything else to contribute to HN.

thaumaturgy 16y ago

Clifford Stoll has explained this far better than I could [1], but aside from the sheer intrinsic value and altruism of taking time out to be an amazing teacher for some students, it can also serve some really practical benefits: if you want the next generation of adults to have a firm grasp of science and technical issues -- whether they later operate a cash register, enter a career in politics, or build the next Amazon -- then it makes sense for us to find the time to teach these skills to students. If you want open source software to take over the world, teach programming to kids. If you want sensible social policies where science and technology are concerned, then teach science and technology to kids. If you want more rational discourse in the future, then teach logic to kids. Saying, "this is somebody else's job" -- even if you're also saying that it's a valuable job and they should be compensated well for it -- is not just self-serving, it's short-sighted. [1]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj8IA6xOpSk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj8IA6xOpSk

Retric 16y ago
<evil>I don't care about future generations, if you want me to teach you need to pay me real money to do so.</evil> Clearly there are people willing to significantly sacrifice their family's financial future for the good of the community. However, there are not enough such people. Thus paying more money allows you to pull in talented people who don't feel the need to sacrifice for their community. PS: You don't actually need to pay market rates. You just need to reduce the sacrifice enough to attract talented people. EX: I would be willing to take a small paycut to do scientific research, but I am unwilling to take the massive paycut it would take to do so.
- thaumaturgy 16y ago
  Then you all are getting exactly the world that you deserve.
  - marvin 16y ago
    You can sit on your high horse forever if you want, but altruism only works when everyone is altruistic. Do you really expect technically competent people to work in an environment where free thought and initiative is punished and bureaucratic nonsense is everywhere...while being paid a third (or less!) of what they would be paid in the industry? That's the choice potential teachers like me face. Personally, I would love to teach, but the pain just isn't worth it. The choice seems like a no-brainer. Going into teaching would be stupid because (1) I'd be miserable if I had to fight the bureucracy (2) said bureocracy would prevent me from having the full impact I could have as an instructor and (3) I wouldn't be anywhere near properly compensated. Is that much pain really worth the joy of making a small difference? You're selling yourself short to a stupid and old-fashioned system. Perhaps changing this would be possible if there was some parallel school system that was completely private and received support from the government in addition to fees from students/parents. Ironically, this is the system we currently have i Norway, but the creation of new private schools is in practice outlawed by the government..severely restricting the possible avenues of teaching and probably limiting the wages of the teachers who want to work there.
    - thaumaturgy 16y ago
      > ...but altruism only works when everyone is altruistic. Not a big fan of open source then, I take it? Or volunteerism in general? > Perhaps changing this would be possible if there was some parallel school system that was completely private and received support from the government in addition to fees from students/parents. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school Also, after-school programs. Or, getting involved in a school board. There are numerous and ample opportunities for someone with the means and motivation, but I think the real issue here is: > I wouldn't be anywhere near properly compensated. I've been wrestling around lately with an ever-widening sense of dismay I have at HN; it's only a problem for me because it's the last community of sorts that I participate in. There are numerous other hobbies and interests that all have their own groups of people, but the advantage to online communities is that they're always there when you need them and not there when you don't. Anyway, I was whining to a good friend recently about this, because I'm having some trouble adjusting to the idea of not being a member of any communities anymore, and he tried to tell me, "Fuck the money-chasers." I fundamentally can't relate to what seems to be the majority here on certain issues. It doesn't at all make sense to me that anyone could have this thought process that goes, "Here is a problem ... and I will complain about it ... and I have the power to change it ... but I won't." How do you think bureaucracies change? They change when enough strong-willed individuals get involved. Are you waiting for them to change themselves? Nothing changes all by itself; every single improvement in society is brought about by someone who worked for that change. Where do you think the funding for teachers comes from? Teachers get their funding from voters, and all voters have been students. If students don't go through school and see, really see, that there was value in their education, then they won't be motivated to vote to spend more money on it. The silliest thing is that we're constantly surrounded by examples of altruism working. The recent "offer HN" series -- which seems to have died out now -- were triggered by just a couple of people choosing to donate their efforts. The recent popular memorial post for Luke Bucklin and family (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1861964 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1861964) is another example of the impact that a little bit of altruism can have. And then there's you. I don't think we could ever reach a point of mutual understanding on this topic, because -- and I mean this with no disrespect -- nobody can afford to pay you enough to be altruistic. It looks like more people here see your point of view than mine. How could I expect to be able to get usable advice on my business from HN then? The odds of my finding anyone here that would understand my motivations and limitations are looking pretty slim. There seems to be a rampant social disease right now, where "hard" problems are concerned, in which those are always somebody else's problem. A lot of talented people are happy to pour effort into building social networks and other trendy things, because there's money and prestige in that, but when it comes to problems like education, public policy, government, and community development -- those are all somebody else's problem. That makes me a little bit concerned for the future. Anyway, this is probably all just a colossal waste of my time and yours. I haven't got anything else to contribute to HN.