4 ms·

eh, it seems you got it backwards, pg's main point seem to me to be productiveness, he even talks about python being one of the best(lispier) of the mainstream

eh, it seems you got it backwards, pg's main point seem to me to be productiveness, he even talks about python being one of the best(lispier) of the mainstream languages, so in that context python would be more powerful than asm and not the other way around.

agumonkey 8y ago
as in blub ~= verbose and boilerplatey
- erik14th 8y ago
  I think it can't be reduced to that, I think a more important aspect is expressiveness, which isn't exactly terseness, I think some historical memory is pertinent here as even classic "blub" languages such as java have adopted plenty of functional characteristics since then, so the options available were very different.
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    true, but I also think that blub is not really about smug or being condescending hence my comment above; expressiveness / hackability / self tooling
  - taneq 8y ago
    The problem with 'expressiveness' is that beyond a certain point, the cognitive load imposed by reading the code exceeds any benefit from the increased density and abstraction. You basically have to decompress the code in your head in order to comprehend it in any useful way.
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      Only if it's written so badly that it leaks, or you need to modify that particular abstraction. In all other cases, you should be able to read the code easily and understand what it expresses without the need for exploring underlying layers of abstraction. I agree it's hard to write good abstractions, but the problem isn't really in Lisp per se - it's just that being able to express any abstraction you want cleanly makes you realize that coming up with correct abstractions is very hard mental work. You may refrain from doing it, but Lisp at least gives you the option.
peterashford 8y ago
Substitute "productivity" there for power and I think the point still stands. PG sees a hierarchy of languages based on some inherent goodness of the language - and surprise, surprise, his favourite language, Lisp, is on top. I think that's BS. How good a language is depends more on the problem than some inherent quality of the language. I think it's pretty hard to get past the fact that a term like "Blub" clearly indicates that PG feels that he's a superior, higher class programmer than those who use "Blub" languages.
- Retra 8y ago
  You say it depends on the problem you're solving, but if you turn around and look at the problems people are solving, you could easily see them falling largely into a few common classes. Like, we all will admit that no natural language is inherently better than any other, but yet we still recommend that programmers learn English -- the quality of the language may not be inherent to the language, but it could be inherent to the context in which the language exists.
coldtea 8y ago
It's not what PG precisely said that matters, it's the intent and notion behind it, which is misguided (and different people could use it to attribute it to asm or idris or whatever -- the notion of the hierarchy of languages that is concrete and task-independent).

agumonkey 8y ago

as in blub ~= verbose and boilerplatey

erik14th 8y ago
I think it can't be reduced to that, I think a more important aspect is expressiveness, which isn't exactly terseness, I think some historical memory is pertinent here as even classic "blub" languages such as java have adopted plenty of functional characteristics since then, so the options available were very different.
- agumonkey 8y ago
  true, but I also think that blub is not really about smug or being condescending hence my comment above; expressiveness / hackability / self tooling
- taneq 8y ago
  The problem with 'expressiveness' is that beyond a certain point, the cognitive load imposed by reading the code exceeds any benefit from the increased density and abstraction. You basically have to decompress the code in your head in order to comprehend it in any useful way.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    Only if it's written so badly that it leaks, or you need to modify that particular abstraction. In all other cases, you should be able to read the code easily and understand what it expresses without the need for exploring underlying layers of abstraction. I agree it's hard to write good abstractions, but the problem isn't really in Lisp per se - it's just that being able to express any abstraction you want cleanly makes you realize that coming up with correct abstractions is very hard mental work. You may refrain from doing it, but Lisp at least gives you the option.

peterashford 8y ago

Substitute "productivity" there for power and I think the point still stands. PG sees a hierarchy of languages based on some inherent goodness of the language - and surprise, surprise, his favourite language, Lisp, is on top. I think that's BS. How good a language is depends more on the problem than some inherent quality of the language. I think it's pretty hard to get past the fact that a term like "Blub" clearly indicates that PG feels that he's a superior, higher class programmer than those who use "Blub" languages.

Retra 8y ago
You say it depends on the problem you're solving, but if you turn around and look at the problems people are solving, you could easily see them falling largely into a few common classes. Like, we all will admit that no natural language is inherently better than any other, but yet we still recommend that programmers learn English -- the quality of the language may not be inherent to the language, but it could be inherent to the context in which the language exists.

coldtea 8y ago

It's not what PG precisely said that matters, it's the intent and notion behind it, which is misguided (and different people could use it to attribute it to asm or idris or whatever -- the notion of the hierarchy of languages that is concrete and task-independent).