4 ms·

So you also don't hire people that drink alcohol, correct? (Throwaway account for obvious reasons).

chc 16y ago
Deja vu. I remembered seeing this same discussion four days ago, and coincidentally it turns out it was with Rick888 too. This might provide useful context: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1850067 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1850067
- kls 16y ago
  I still contend that a businessman does not have the right to hire or more importantly fire someone based on lifestyle choices. So again a recreational drug uses can be fired because he feels he has the right to intervene in someones personal affairs. What about a drinker? what about a skydiver? Lets take it further what about a homosexual? oh no that would be wrong. OK what about a swinger (they are high risk sexual lifestyle)? The fact remains whether the law allows it or not, if an employer discriminates against people based on personal choices made in their personal life they are an asshat. While they may have the authority they do not have the right. To think you do is self-serving and narrow minded. I respect the personal freedoms of the individual far more than I do the personal freedoms of a business, because when it gets down to brass tacks, it is the people that are the reason that he is in business in the first place. Both the ones that consume his service and provide the back of labor that got him there. I love how business owners feel that they have become the masters. It is the reason for the term corporate slavery.
  - rick888 16y ago
    "What about a drinker? what about a skydiver? Lets take it further what about a homosexual? oh no that would be wrong. OK what about a swinger (they are high risk sexual lifestyle)?" Like I said, it has the potential to affect workers. If I caught someone high on the job, I have a feeling someone would be able to successfully use this law to tell me, as a business owner, that I wouldn't be able to fire them due to "discrimination". If getting high or drunk did nothing to your work performance, I wouldn't really care. How does swinging or homosexuality do anything to hurt the performance of a worker? It doesn't. If you were the only developer at a company and the business would be pretty much screwed without you, do you think it's fair to the company to be involved in high-risk behavior? This is why from the company's standpoint, everyone should be replaceable. It equally balances power. "I respect the personal freedoms of the individual far more than I do the personal freedoms of a business, because when it gets down to brass tacks, it is the people that are the reason that he is in business in the first place." Now we are getting to the truth. You are self-serving and only believe in something that will benefit you. Customers are the reason the business is there in the first place. Workers are getting paid and are provided a living. You act as if starting a business involves no work. It involves sacrifice and most workers just aren't willing to go through it. Would you spend all your free time working on a business? Or partying with your friends and relaxing? "if an employer discriminates against people based on personal choices made in their personal life they are an asshat" Banks don't hire felons..and neither would I. This most likely is a personal choice. Businesses only hire people based on personal choices. You might have decided to major in computer science and write programs for fun (all personal choices) that led to having the skills to work for a specific company. "I love how business owners feel that they have become the masters. It is the reason for the term corporate slavery." I love how employees feel that businesses should be forced, by law, to hire people they don't want to hire. Corporate slavery is an insult to people that were actually slaves. You have the freedom to leave at any time, you just choose to stay and complain about how you are a "corporate slave". This, by definition means you are not a slave.
    - alphaBeta1234 16y ago
      You present a false choice. You're trying to compare "If I caught someone high on the job," with someone skydiving on their own time. Nobody is suggesting that you can't fire someone who shows up high. But you'd also fire someone who showed up drunk, or who skydived (skydove?) and crashed through the roof of your building every day. I just appears really, really, really, disingenuous and intellectually dishonest that you are focused on the concept of workers coming in high. I smoke a lot. But I don't go to work high. Just like people drink a lot, but don't go to work drunk. My inner armchair psychologist tells me that you're experiencing a lot of cognitive dissonance because you somehow think cannabis is more immoral than these other lifestyle choices. And you're having a difficult time reconciling your beliefs with the evidence put in front of you. In the absence of a strong reason (your "banks not hiring felons" is an edge case, so let's not pretend it's the same thing as hiring a programmer who smokes cannabis outside of work in his personal time), I don't think business owners should be able to dictate a single freaking thing I do in my spare time. If I want to smoke pot, or have sex with my own gender, or skydive, or drive fast, it is not one single bit of your nosy business, mr businessman. Unless it affects my work performance. I don't normally buy into the whole "corporate slavery" thing. However, with health care usually linked to employment, the issue is a little less clear. Without a job, I'm actually risking my life because I won't be able to afford health care. To me, that inches a little closer to slavery -- "you must work here or you will die" (hyperbole mine).
    - kls 16y ago
      You are self-serving and only believe in something that will benefit you Actually no I don't, I value individual freedoms. It is what this nation was founded on. BTW I am a business owner and have built and sold three businesses before my current one. I respect the right to my employees personal life. In my life I, as a business owner, have employed over 600 people. I have never once had an issue with their personal life affecting their ability to perform their duty. The truth of the matter as you state above, is just like the religious right you want to impose your will on others. While the subject may be different, you share the mentality. As a business owner you have power and therefore a greater responsibility to not do so. As Uncle Ben says with great power comes great responsibility. Corporate slavery is an insult to people that were actually slaves Dude bondage is bondage, what if you just steal a little? Just because it comes with a rainbow and a kiss does not negate what it is. When a business owner imposes his will on his employes on their free time (where they are a freeman) it is a form of subjugation. That by all definitions is slavey (the absence of the ability to act for oneself, without fear of reprisal). I am not saying all employers abuse their employees right to the pursuit of life, love and happiness, but it is obvious some do. Banks don't hire felons Right they are a felon, they have past track record of grievous criminal behavior. It is the reason there is a distinction between a misdemeanor and a felony. These people have been found guilty. You on the other hand are imposing guilt before any infraction has occurred. It would be different if you said I will not hire someone with a DUI. But that is not what you said. What your logic implies is that all Alcoholics commit DUI, those are not the words you said but it is the logical argument that you are making and it is flawed, not only is it flawed but it is dangerous. BTW for the record I do not smoke or drink.
- rick888 16y ago
  You mean I'm consistent with my beliefs? OH THE HORROR!

chc 16y ago

Deja vu. I remembered seeing this same discussion four days ago, and coincidentally it turns out it was with Rick888 too. This might provide useful context: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1850067 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1850067

kls 16y ago
I still contend that a businessman does not have the right to hire or more importantly fire someone based on lifestyle choices. So again a recreational drug uses can be fired because he feels he has the right to intervene in someones personal affairs. What about a drinker? what about a skydiver? Lets take it further what about a homosexual? oh no that would be wrong. OK what about a swinger (they are high risk sexual lifestyle)? The fact remains whether the law allows it or not, if an employer discriminates against people based on personal choices made in their personal life they are an asshat. While they may have the authority they do not have the right. To think you do is self-serving and narrow minded. I respect the personal freedoms of the individual far more than I do the personal freedoms of a business, because when it gets down to brass tacks, it is the people that are the reason that he is in business in the first place. Both the ones that consume his service and provide the back of labor that got him there. I love how business owners feel that they have become the masters. It is the reason for the term corporate slavery.
- rick888 16y ago
  "What about a drinker? what about a skydiver? Lets take it further what about a homosexual? oh no that would be wrong. OK what about a swinger (they are high risk sexual lifestyle)?" Like I said, it has the potential to affect workers. If I caught someone high on the job, I have a feeling someone would be able to successfully use this law to tell me, as a business owner, that I wouldn't be able to fire them due to "discrimination". If getting high or drunk did nothing to your work performance, I wouldn't really care. How does swinging or homosexuality do anything to hurt the performance of a worker? It doesn't. If you were the only developer at a company and the business would be pretty much screwed without you, do you think it's fair to the company to be involved in high-risk behavior? This is why from the company's standpoint, everyone should be replaceable. It equally balances power. "I respect the personal freedoms of the individual far more than I do the personal freedoms of a business, because when it gets down to brass tacks, it is the people that are the reason that he is in business in the first place." Now we are getting to the truth. You are self-serving and only believe in something that will benefit you. Customers are the reason the business is there in the first place. Workers are getting paid and are provided a living. You act as if starting a business involves no work. It involves sacrifice and most workers just aren't willing to go through it. Would you spend all your free time working on a business? Or partying with your friends and relaxing? "if an employer discriminates against people based on personal choices made in their personal life they are an asshat" Banks don't hire felons..and neither would I. This most likely is a personal choice. Businesses only hire people based on personal choices. You might have decided to major in computer science and write programs for fun (all personal choices) that led to having the skills to work for a specific company. "I love how business owners feel that they have become the masters. It is the reason for the term corporate slavery." I love how employees feel that businesses should be forced, by law, to hire people they don't want to hire. Corporate slavery is an insult to people that were actually slaves. You have the freedom to leave at any time, you just choose to stay and complain about how you are a "corporate slave". This, by definition means you are not a slave.
  - alphaBeta1234 16y ago
    You present a false choice. You're trying to compare "If I caught someone high on the job," with someone skydiving on their own time. Nobody is suggesting that you can't fire someone who shows up high. But you'd also fire someone who showed up drunk, or who skydived (skydove?) and crashed through the roof of your building every day. I just appears really, really, really, disingenuous and intellectually dishonest that you are focused on the concept of workers coming in high. I smoke a lot. But I don't go to work high. Just like people drink a lot, but don't go to work drunk. My inner armchair psychologist tells me that you're experiencing a lot of cognitive dissonance because you somehow think cannabis is more immoral than these other lifestyle choices. And you're having a difficult time reconciling your beliefs with the evidence put in front of you. In the absence of a strong reason (your "banks not hiring felons" is an edge case, so let's not pretend it's the same thing as hiring a programmer who smokes cannabis outside of work in his personal time), I don't think business owners should be able to dictate a single freaking thing I do in my spare time. If I want to smoke pot, or have sex with my own gender, or skydive, or drive fast, it is not one single bit of your nosy business, mr businessman. Unless it affects my work performance. I don't normally buy into the whole "corporate slavery" thing. However, with health care usually linked to employment, the issue is a little less clear. Without a job, I'm actually risking my life because I won't be able to afford health care. To me, that inches a little closer to slavery -- "you must work here or you will die" (hyperbole mine).
  - kls 16y ago
    You are self-serving and only believe in something that will benefit you Actually no I don't, I value individual freedoms. It is what this nation was founded on. BTW I am a business owner and have built and sold three businesses before my current one. I respect the right to my employees personal life. In my life I, as a business owner, have employed over 600 people. I have never once had an issue with their personal life affecting their ability to perform their duty. The truth of the matter as you state above, is just like the religious right you want to impose your will on others. While the subject may be different, you share the mentality. As a business owner you have power and therefore a greater responsibility to not do so. As Uncle Ben says with great power comes great responsibility. Corporate slavery is an insult to people that were actually slaves Dude bondage is bondage, what if you just steal a little? Just because it comes with a rainbow and a kiss does not negate what it is. When a business owner imposes his will on his employes on their free time (where they are a freeman) it is a form of subjugation. That by all definitions is slavey (the absence of the ability to act for oneself, without fear of reprisal). I am not saying all employers abuse their employees right to the pursuit of life, love and happiness, but it is obvious some do. Banks don't hire felons Right they are a felon, they have past track record of grievous criminal behavior. It is the reason there is a distinction between a misdemeanor and a felony. These people have been found guilty. You on the other hand are imposing guilt before any infraction has occurred. It would be different if you said I will not hire someone with a DUI. But that is not what you said. What your logic implies is that all Alcoholics commit DUI, those are not the words you said but it is the logical argument that you are making and it is flawed, not only is it flawed but it is dangerous. BTW for the record I do not smoke or drink.
rick888 16y ago
You mean I'm consistent with my beliefs? OH THE HORROR!