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I hate Comcast with a passion and have always fantasized about living in a progressive municipality that provides fiber to the home. However, a few years ago I

I hate Comcast with a passion and have always fantasized about living in a progressive municipality that provides fiber to the home. However, a few years ago I bought a home and it’s only been over the last 6 months or so I’ve realized how horribly corrupt and mismanaged small city governments can be. We’re being sucked dry by our mayor who hired her cousin as city manager for an exorbitant compensation package. They had no problem spending millions on extravgently updating the city offices but have come to residents with their hands out begging for money through special assessments to fix our roads, storm water drains, and water mains that are unusable for firefighting (and the city does not have a tanker truck). My point is simply that I’m not sure a purely municipal broadband is the panacea we all hope for. In some cases it may be better to stick with the devil you know vs the horribly slow, beaurctatic devil you don’t. I hope that over time we find a municipal model that works well and serves residents with cutting edge broadband. Until then I’ll continue to attempt to vote these clowns out.

bogomipz 8y ago
>"My point is simply that I’m not sure a purely municipal broadband is the panacea we all hope for." I have never heard of it referred to as a "panacea." What it is is an alternative and some competition. I fail to see how having another option where there is now none could ever be worse than "sticking with the devil you know." Look at what either the arrival or even the threat of Google fiber has done is some cable monopoly areas.
roflchoppa 8y ago
You should run for Mayor, I believe in you.
- all2 8y ago
  > bronco21016 for Mayor 2019 Can we do this? How could we put this together? More generally, is he qualified? How do we tell?
  - kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
    We need a dossier on the incumbent mayor. Bronco's qualifications won't matter.
    - all2 8y ago
      incumbant.io is available. I sense a grass-roots campaign platform application. Probably SaaS. Maybe 'campaign as a service'? Given recent events, this seems like it might actually be an appropriate idea to pursue.
AsyncAwait 8y ago
> My point is simply that I’m not sure a purely municipal broadband is the panacea we all hope for. In some cases it may be better to stick with the devil you know No, the answer is to elect better politicians, like AOC, resigning yourself to a corporation is a TERRIBLE idea!
bliblah 8y ago
The difference is that in this case because this is a more "local" power you, the consumer/voter, actually have the power to hold them liable. Imagine living in a Town with less than 2.5k people living in rural midwest and comcast screws you over, what are you going to do? They only answer to Stockholders and "big fish" markets. Elected officials care and respond to votes and the smaller the area of control, the easier it is to get your voice heard. I wish competition would be enforced rather than this all-or-nothing approach.
- FakeComments 8y ago
  Also, the city doesn’t do the whole deal necessarily — they can do things like lay the fiber, then lease it to various providers to figure out transit from the local plant across the internet. This would be more like the dial-up days, where the line to connect to the network is fairly independent from who provides the service.
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  >Imagine living in a Town with less than 2.5k people living in rural midwest... And: >Elected officials care and respond to votes and the smaller the area of control, the easier it is to get your voice heard... I think either you haven't lived in such a town, or small towns in Wisconsin, where I'm from, are atypical in this regard. Not sure which, since I've never personally lived in any small town outside of Wisconsin. In my experience, bronco21016 is right to be suspicious of local government. But again, YMMV. Different places may have different dynamics.
  - gbear605 8y ago
    Many small towns definitely do listen to their residents. Not all, unfortunately.
  - Coldgamr 8y ago
    A more broad question. Why is it that corrupt officials continue to get re-elected? Especially in a small town (speaking as someone who has never lived in a small town), it seems like the residents would be better informed of a representative's corruption.
mmsimanga 8y ago
I thought you might be my neighbor but since you talk about Comcast and I am in Africa I guess we just have the same issues with local government.
technobabble 8y ago
I highly recommend The Dictator's Handbook in order to fully understand the de facto politics going on in governments.
- greygore 8y ago
  I'd also like to recommend CGP Grey's Rules for Rulers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs) which is based on The Dictator's Handbook. I really should add that to my library though...
- OrwellianChild 8y ago
  Seconded. There are municipalities doing things right, but The Dictator's Handbook is an excellent set of case studies in how it can go very wrong. (Also discusses actual dictators, corporate governance, and other related scenarios.)
gbear605 8y ago
A model that works really well in large parts of New England is "town meeting" - all the citizens of the town who want to get together annually or semiannually and vote on all the important issues. There are also selectmen, who generally guide the way, and other town staff, who manage the day to day issues, but control is fundamentally in control of the citizens. It only works in towns with a population up to about 10,000 though, before it becomes infeasible to get all those people together and the town needs to react more quickly. In a lot of small towns around here they require that two ISPs provide coverage, so there is actual competition and we get great service fairly cheaply.
stuart78 8y ago
I agree that there are risks, but at the very least you and your neighbors can a) identify corruption or mismanagement and b) work to vote corrupt leadership out. Much harder to do with Comcast. (And for the record, I'm all for real competition in these markets. Let Comcast and the municipality battle it out. May the best provider win.)
- sokoloff 8y ago
  I strongly suspect that what you'd find is that Comcast would simply "pass" on trying to compete in those towns. Comcast loves towns where they can be a monopoly provider (like mine) and in a case where there'd be bloody competition against a municipal provider, I suspect they'd rather fight on another front.
- CountSessine 8y ago
  How badly do you want to be a taxpayer in a city with a government that’s determined to spend out of the bottomless public purse to compete with Comcast?
  - rmrfrmrf 8y ago
    It's the other way around, actually. Private ISPs cannot survive without statutes that prevent the establishment of municipal ISPs. Like all utilities, Internet traffic has a very low per-unit cost, making it unviable to turn a meaningful profit without engaging in predatory business practices.
cooperadymas 8y ago
The mayor of my town won election with just over 300 votes. Even the nearby city of 100k people elected their mayor with only 10,000 votes. It's a lot easier to rid yourself of corruption at this level than it is at a corporate or a federal level.
xoa 8y ago
>is the panacea we all hope for I have never seen "panacea" used by anyone except those opposed to any public infrastructure, and while you sound like you're speaking in all good faith and I appreciate that I still have trouble seeing this as something other then a strawman. Of course governments can have issues too. Public roads can have potholes. Bridges have not been kept up. Public parks aren't always maintained to the extent they're supposed to be. Etc etc. But at the same time there are plenty of good cases to show it can be done very well too, and the massive failures of privatized infrastructure are also in ample evidence. Fundamentally natural monopolies and basic floor level services for society (taking into account not just existing people but future generations and flexibility value to the nation overall) aren't great fits for a market. Some things really do make sense as an area of government. Corruption is simply something that has to be fought, period, but we do have the tools to do so more easily at the local government level then for more widely distributed private entities. And whatever else the fact is that privatized information infrastructure simply has not worked overall. There will absolutely be cases of mismanagement and corruption in public information infrastructure should it become widespread, there will be fierce fights and politics and so forth same as with roads and everything else. That however doesn't make it worse then the alternatives, and long term in America at least citizens get the government they deserve.
- supercanuck 8y ago
  The other point is that with a government, people have the opportunity to vote management out. Not so much with Comcast.
  - CountSessine 8y ago
    But you don't have the opportunity to vote with your pocketbook at all once it becomes a government service. Why not use the power of government to create a competitive market that would allow new ISPs to enter the market? Like making a modest investment in common conduits into neighborhoods that all ISPs can wire through?
    - trylist 8y ago
cowsandmilk 8y ago
Keep in mind, Charlemont has no mayor and most issues, including this one, are decided by open town meeting, which is literally direct democracy where residents show up and everyone gets one vote. No one has the ability to hire someone for an exorbitant salary without literal approval by a direct vote of all residents who show up at a meeting. This isn't to say open town meetings are perfect. There is a definite skewing towards retired people without kids in who shows up in many towns in MA. In this case, ~160 or 1,300 residents voted, so hardly the whole town. But if you care about an issue, you have far more of a voice than you do in cities run by mayors and city councils. For instance, Boston residents literally had no voice in the city's negotiations with Verizon about FiOS and didn't even hear about it until they jointly announced their deal.
- dugmartin 8y ago
  One note: this was a special town meeting just for this issue and not the general town meeting which is in the spring. A lot more people show up for the general meeting. I live one town over from Charlemont and as a now 20-year New England transplant I've grown to love town meeting. Everyone's voice is heard and you can make a real difference with just a simple speech. I was able to help defeat some ordinance language against WISPs at last years town meeting that another resident with "electromagnetic hypersensitivity" had tried to get passed.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  >Boston residents literally had no voice in the city's negotiations with Verizon about FiOS and didn't even hear about it until they jointly announced their deal. Boston residents got a taste of what it's like for the rest of the state when the Boston/Cambridge area runs the show.
gwbas1c 8y ago
I lived in a MA town for a few years, and had municipal broadband. The people who installed it raved about how they preferred working for the town instead of Comcast. Service was exceptional.
swoongoonz 8y ago
This user has 0 comments, 0 submissions except related to this issue. I call bullshit. You're not a real person, you're a corporate insider.
noobermin 8y ago
>Here's my personal example with my city government. Therefore, all the city governments must be bad.
orblivion 8y ago
You could start a cooperative within your town. https://www.thelocal.de/20140601/german-villagers-build-own-broadband-network https://www.thelocal.de/20140601/german-villagers-build-own-...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
empath75 8y ago
As someone who has worked for an isp I can assure you there’s no shortage of corruption and waste there.
fisheuler 8y ago
"为人民服务"已变成一句空话。
- nkurz 8y ago
  Google Translate says: "Serving the people" has become an empty talk. I'm not sure what others think, but I think it's probably better for the community that comments be in English unless there is a compelling reason for them to be in another language. But I am a native English speaker, so maybe this is just motivated reasoning on my part?
eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago
It’s a hard sell to say that your experience with your small government is indicative of all small governments and somehow warrants going with the leeches at Comcast instead.

bogomipz 8y ago

>"My point is simply that I’m not sure a purely municipal broadband is the panacea we all hope for." I have never heard of it referred to as a "panacea." What it is is an alternative and some competition. I fail to see how having another option where there is now none could ever be worse than "sticking with the devil you know." Look at what either the arrival or even the threat of Google fiber has done is some cable monopoly areas.

roflchoppa 8y ago

You should run for Mayor, I believe in you.

all2 8y ago
> bronco21016 for Mayor 2019 Can we do this? How could we put this together? More generally, is he qualified? How do we tell?
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  We need a dossier on the incumbent mayor. Bronco's qualifications won't matter.
  - all2 8y ago
    incumbant.io is available. I sense a grass-roots campaign platform application. Probably SaaS. Maybe 'campaign as a service'? Given recent events, this seems like it might actually be an appropriate idea to pursue.

AsyncAwait 8y ago

> My point is simply that I’m not sure a purely municipal broadband is the panacea we all hope for. In some cases it may be better to stick with the devil you know No, the answer is to elect better politicians, like AOC, resigning yourself to a corporation is a TERRIBLE idea!

bliblah 8y ago

The difference is that in this case because this is a more "local" power you, the consumer/voter, actually have the power to hold them liable. Imagine living in a Town with less than 2.5k people living in rural midwest and comcast screws you over, what are you going to do? They only answer to Stockholders and "big fish" markets. Elected officials care and respond to votes and the smaller the area of control, the easier it is to get your voice heard. I wish competition would be enforced rather than this all-or-nothing approach.

FakeComments 8y ago
Also, the city doesn’t do the whole deal necessarily — they can do things like lay the fiber, then lease it to various providers to figure out transit from the local plant across the internet. This would be more like the dial-up days, where the line to connect to the network is fairly independent from who provides the service.
bilbo0s 8y ago
>Imagine living in a Town with less than 2.5k people living in rural midwest... And: >Elected officials care and respond to votes and the smaller the area of control, the easier it is to get your voice heard... I think either you haven't lived in such a town, or small towns in Wisconsin, where I'm from, are atypical in this regard. Not sure which, since I've never personally lived in any small town outside of Wisconsin. In my experience, bronco21016 is right to be suspicious of local government. But again, YMMV. Different places may have different dynamics.
- gbear605 8y ago
  Many small towns definitely do listen to their residents. Not all, unfortunately.
- Coldgamr 8y ago
  A more broad question. Why is it that corrupt officials continue to get re-elected? Especially in a small town (speaking as someone who has never lived in a small town), it seems like the residents would be better informed of a representative's corruption.

mmsimanga 8y ago

I thought you might be my neighbor but since you talk about Comcast and I am in Africa I guess we just have the same issues with local government.

technobabble 8y ago

I highly recommend The Dictator's Handbook in order to fully understand the de facto politics going on in governments.

greygore 8y ago
I'd also like to recommend CGP Grey's Rules for Rulers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs) which is based on The Dictator's Handbook. I really should add that to my library though...
OrwellianChild 8y ago
Seconded. There are municipalities doing things right, but The Dictator's Handbook is an excellent set of case studies in how it can go very wrong. (Also discusses actual dictators, corporate governance, and other related scenarios.)

gbear605 8y ago

A model that works really well in large parts of New England is "town meeting" - all the citizens of the town who want to get together annually or semiannually and vote on all the important issues. There are also selectmen, who generally guide the way, and other town staff, who manage the day to day issues, but control is fundamentally in control of the citizens. It only works in towns with a population up to about 10,000 though, before it becomes infeasible to get all those people together and the town needs to react more quickly. In a lot of small towns around here they require that two ISPs provide coverage, so there is actual competition and we get great service fairly cheaply.

stuart78 8y ago

I agree that there are risks, but at the very least you and your neighbors can a) identify corruption or mismanagement and b) work to vote corrupt leadership out. Much harder to do with Comcast. (And for the record, I'm all for real competition in these markets. Let Comcast and the municipality battle it out. May the best provider win.)

sokoloff 8y ago
I strongly suspect that what you'd find is that Comcast would simply "pass" on trying to compete in those towns. Comcast loves towns where they can be a monopoly provider (like mine) and in a case where there'd be bloody competition against a municipal provider, I suspect they'd rather fight on another front.
CountSessine 8y ago
How badly do you want to be a taxpayer in a city with a government that’s determined to spend out of the bottomless public purse to compete with Comcast?
- rmrfrmrf 8y ago
  It's the other way around, actually. Private ISPs cannot survive without statutes that prevent the establishment of municipal ISPs. Like all utilities, Internet traffic has a very low per-unit cost, making it unviable to turn a meaningful profit without engaging in predatory business practices.

cooperadymas 8y ago

The mayor of my town won election with just over 300 votes. Even the nearby city of 100k people elected their mayor with only 10,000 votes. It's a lot easier to rid yourself of corruption at this level than it is at a corporate or a federal level.

xoa 8y ago

>is the panacea we all hope for I have never seen "panacea" used by anyone except those opposed to any public infrastructure, and while you sound like you're speaking in all good faith and I appreciate that I still have trouble seeing this as something other then a strawman. Of course governments can have issues too. Public roads can have potholes. Bridges have not been kept up. Public parks aren't always maintained to the extent they're supposed to be. Etc etc. But at the same time there are plenty of good cases to show it can be done very well too, and the massive failures of privatized infrastructure are also in ample evidence. Fundamentally natural monopolies and basic floor level services for society (taking into account not just existing people but future generations and flexibility value to the nation overall) aren't great fits for a market. Some things really do make sense as an area of government. Corruption is simply something that has to be fought, period, but we do have the tools to do so more easily at the local government level then for more widely distributed private entities. And whatever else the fact is that privatized information infrastructure simply has not worked overall. There will absolutely be cases of mismanagement and corruption in public information infrastructure should it become widespread, there will be fierce fights and politics and so forth same as with roads and everything else. That however doesn't make it worse then the alternatives, and long term in America at least citizens get the government they deserve.

supercanuck 8y ago
The other point is that with a government, people have the opportunity to vote management out. Not so much with Comcast.
- CountSessine 8y ago
  But you don't have the opportunity to vote with your pocketbook at all once it becomes a government service. Why not use the power of government to create a competitive market that would allow new ISPs to enter the market? Like making a modest investment in common conduits into neighborhoods that all ISPs can wire through?
  - trylist 8y ago

cowsandmilk 8y ago

Keep in mind, Charlemont has no mayor and most issues, including this one, are decided by open town meeting, which is literally direct democracy where residents show up and everyone gets one vote. No one has the ability to hire someone for an exorbitant salary without literal approval by a direct vote of all residents who show up at a meeting. This isn't to say open town meetings are perfect. There is a definite skewing towards retired people without kids in who shows up in many towns in MA. In this case, ~160 or 1,300 residents voted, so hardly the whole town. But if you care about an issue, you have far more of a voice than you do in cities run by mayors and city councils. For instance, Boston residents literally had no voice in the city's negotiations with Verizon about FiOS and didn't even hear about it until they jointly announced their deal.

dugmartin 8y ago
One note: this was a special town meeting just for this issue and not the general town meeting which is in the spring. A lot more people show up for the general meeting. I live one town over from Charlemont and as a now 20-year New England transplant I've grown to love town meeting. Everyone's voice is heard and you can make a real difference with just a simple speech. I was able to help defeat some ordinance language against WISPs at last years town meeting that another resident with "electromagnetic hypersensitivity" had tried to get passed.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
>Boston residents literally had no voice in the city's negotiations with Verizon about FiOS and didn't even hear about it until they jointly announced their deal. Boston residents got a taste of what it's like for the rest of the state when the Boston/Cambridge area runs the show.

gwbas1c 8y ago

I lived in a MA town for a few years, and had municipal broadband. The people who installed it raved about how they preferred working for the town instead of Comcast. Service was exceptional.

swoongoonz 8y ago

This user has 0 comments, 0 submissions except related to this issue. I call bullshit. You're not a real person, you're a corporate insider.

noobermin 8y ago

>Here's my personal example with my city government. Therefore, all the city governments must be bad.

orblivion 8y ago

You could start a cooperative within your town. https://www.thelocal.de/20140601/german-villagers-build-own-broadband-network https://www.thelocal.de/20140601/german-villagers-build-own-...

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

empath75 8y ago

As someone who has worked for an isp I can assure you there’s no shortage of corruption and waste there.

fisheuler 8y ago

"为人民服务"已变成一句空话。

nkurz 8y ago
Google Translate says: "Serving the people" has become an empty talk. I'm not sure what others think, but I think it's probably better for the community that comments be in English unless there is a compelling reason for them to be in another language. But I am a native English speaker, so maybe this is just motivated reasoning on my part?

eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago

It’s a hard sell to say that your experience with your small government is indicative of all small governments and somehow warrants going with the leeches at Comcast instead.