5 ms·

Why don't restaurant owners increase the food prices and pay servers a fair wage? Opening a $100 bottle of wine or $400 bottle of wine requires same effort, why

Why don't restaurant owners increase the food prices and pay servers a fair wage? Opening a $100 bottle of wine or $400 bottle of wine requires same effort, why do i pay extra for a $400 bottle of wine? Now if you bring up the "service" provided argument, That is literally their job. If they are getting paid a decent minimum wage or little bit more than that, i think it's fair. Do you tip McDonald's employee? Do you tip your garbage men? Do you tip the people who helped you at the clothing store?

kennywinker 8y ago
> why do i pay extra for a $400 bottle of wine? Because you can afford a $400 bottle of wine. It’s a wealth-based sliding scale.
- parthdesai 8y ago
  You are doing exactly same amount of work. It already is ridiculous to pay $20 to unscrew a cork and you are saying i should be paying $80 for a person to unscrew a cork just because the bottle itself costs more?
  - fermienrico 8y ago
    I like the spirit of what you're saying but your tone is not acceptable by HN standards.
    - parthdesai 8y ago
      fair, edited the comment.
  - defaultprimate 8y ago
    Imagine telling this to a developer with 10 years of experience versus one with 1 year of experience that you've contracted to do the same job. It's no different. There's so much more to the story of the server than "the same amount of work". Most servers that work in a place selling $400 bottles of wine have a lot more knowledge, service quality, expertise, etc. than you'd find elsewhere. If you don't want to participate in the culture, don't go to places you would be upset doing so.
- fermienrico 8y ago
  Affordability is not the issue. Just because I can afford to pay all kinds of things does not make the justification for charging it. They're separate matters.
Aunche 8y ago
> Why don't restaurant owners increase the food prices and pay servers a fair wage? A lot of good waiters make more with tips. A "fair wage" from the restaurant owner's perspective would be a bit less than how much they pay a line cooks (~$14/hr). A waiter at a semi-popular restaurant can make much more than this because the customer doesn't know fair value of their work and usually overcompensates. Waiters can also cheat on taxes a bit when people tip in cash.
- PenguinCoder 8y ago
  And none of this strikes you as a problem?
leetcrew 8y ago
I worked as a server in an American restaurant when I was in college (not long ago). my perspective as an employee: I definitely would remember which customers tipped well. anyone who walked into the restaurant would at least get the minimum treatment my boss expected, but I would often go above and beyond for people I knew tipped well. I usually averaged around $12-15/hr after tips, in a state where the minimum wage was $8.50 or so. this is just speculation of course, but I really doubt I would have made that much money if it had to come direct from the business (ie no tipping culture). my perspective as a customer: tipping allows me to decide whether I want to pay extra for good service. if I just go to some restaurant occasionally, I'll just tip 18% or whatever and they at least won't spit in my food. on the other hand, if I go to some place all the time, I can tip 25% or more and get great service every time I go. tipping allows people who care about good service to pay for it, and it allows servers to allocate more of their time/attention to their best customers. having experienced both sides of it, I'm really not sure what the problem is, unless you're just visiting and don't understand the system.
- parthdesai 8y ago
  See i get it in US why tipping exists. I'm from Canada and our minimum wage isn't that bad. Like i said, it would be much better if restaurants owners reflected this cost in the prices for the food and every server made decent minimum wage. And frankly things have been getting ridiculous where a lot of machines have tip preselected to 18%. If i go to a coffee shop and order a drip coffee to go, they expect me to tip. And i like how you conveniently ignored the last paragraph. Do you tip any of the people i mentioned? Because, frankly a garbage men's services are way more useful and needed than a servers. Why do servers deserve a tip and not people working at clothing store? Or people working at Walmart?
  - leetcrew 8y ago
    I didn't have any ulterior motive behind not addressing your other points; mainly I just wanted to share my perspective on things that I actually have experience with. I'll take a stab at a response now. first of all, mandatory tipping at a coffee shop or takeout place is dumb. afaik, these are not legally considered tipped positions and the employer is not usually allowed to count tips toward minimum wage. that said, I certainly recommend you throw a little extra in their tip jar if they actually provide outstanding service. > Do you tip any of the people i mentioned? Because, frankly a garbage men's services are way more useful and needed than a servers. Why do servers deserve a tip and not people working at clothing store? Or people working at Walmart? I don't claim that the tipping system is inherently moral or immoral. my claim is that it is a practical way to align incentives in a particular set of situations. in a restaurant, the difference between acceptable and great service is quite large. if I'm handling several tables, I'm usually going to get to the tables that tip well first. I'm going to make sure they're not in the middle of a deep conversation when I go over to check if the food is okay. there are tons of subtle things that a skilled server can do to improve your dining experience if they are incentivized. garbage men, on the other hand, either pick up your trash or they don't. idk what the difference between a good and a great garbage collector is, maybe the great one takes the time to leave my can sitting upright? a cashier can ring you up fast or take their time, but can't really affect your experience other than that. I do actually agree that maybe some retail positions should be tipped. I find that usually Walmart employees don't give a shit whether I find everything I'm looking for. occasionally one of them is super helpful and saves me 30min or more of hunting around the store. in these situations I try to slip them a couple bills. if they refuse, I make sure to find their supervisor on the way out and explain that they made the store a lot more money by helping me find my things.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
defaultprimate 8y ago
Because a "fair" wage is not merit based and most servers would leave the industry if they were not tipped. I was a server for over a decade, and a very good one at that. I did very well for myself, especially compared to similarly skilled labor. You pay more for a $400 bottle of wine because you decided to go to a restaurant and buy a $400 bottle of wine. If you don't want to do it, don't go. You're paying for the labor and service in the tier of restaurant you're at. Not just the act of opening a bottle of wine. The type of servers that work in places that serve a $400 bottle of wine are going to be a lot better than the person that works at Applebees. They're going to have extensive menu knowledge, usually know a lot about taste profiles of their food and beverages, multiple years of experience, etc. It's no different than freelance developer work. Compare the quality of service of people that do "their job" to those that are rewarded for doing their job exceptionally well on an individual basis. Serving food table-side is participating in one of the most intimate rituals of human existence. It's in a whole different tier of customer service than fast food, clothing, etc. Do you have any idea how much restaurants would have to raise their prices to pay a "fair wage"? Enough to where the number of servers they could employ would fall dramatically, not only disincentivizing great service, but also the pure availability of it. There are razor thin profit margins on food.
- mattdeboard 8y ago
  All true: - The system we have is internally consistent, which your comment very ably pointed out. - Restaurants are incentivized to employ workers whose pay falls under the "tipped workers" regulations. - Americans are used to tipping, and we understand the trade-offs, and those of us who don't work for tips (like you and me) generally like a tipping-based system. What's not to like about a system that gives us the power to control or punish service workers according to our whims? ;) Finally, citing profit margins as the reason to artificially depress payroll obligations of employers to employees might be accurate, but it's also a great example of how the system is broken: Why do restaurants exist that can't afford to pay their workers a fair wage?

kennywinker 8y ago

> why do i pay extra for a $400 bottle of wine? Because you can afford a $400 bottle of wine. It’s a wealth-based sliding scale.

parthdesai 8y ago
You are doing exactly same amount of work. It already is ridiculous to pay $20 to unscrew a cork and you are saying i should be paying $80 for a person to unscrew a cork just because the bottle itself costs more?
- fermienrico 8y ago
  I like the spirit of what you're saying but your tone is not acceptable by HN standards.
  - parthdesai 8y ago
    fair, edited the comment.
- defaultprimate 8y ago
  Imagine telling this to a developer with 10 years of experience versus one with 1 year of experience that you've contracted to do the same job. It's no different. There's so much more to the story of the server than "the same amount of work". Most servers that work in a place selling $400 bottles of wine have a lot more knowledge, service quality, expertise, etc. than you'd find elsewhere. If you don't want to participate in the culture, don't go to places you would be upset doing so.
fermienrico 8y ago
Affordability is not the issue. Just because I can afford to pay all kinds of things does not make the justification for charging it. They're separate matters.

Aunche 8y ago

> Why don't restaurant owners increase the food prices and pay servers a fair wage? A lot of good waiters make more with tips. A "fair wage" from the restaurant owner's perspective would be a bit less than how much they pay a line cooks (~$14/hr). A waiter at a semi-popular restaurant can make much more than this because the customer doesn't know fair value of their work and usually overcompensates. Waiters can also cheat on taxes a bit when people tip in cash.

PenguinCoder 8y ago
And none of this strikes you as a problem?

leetcrew 8y ago

I worked as a server in an American restaurant when I was in college (not long ago). my perspective as an employee: I definitely would remember which customers tipped well. anyone who walked into the restaurant would at least get the minimum treatment my boss expected, but I would often go above and beyond for people I knew tipped well. I usually averaged around $12-15/hr after tips, in a state where the minimum wage was $8.50 or so. this is just speculation of course, but I really doubt I would have made that much money if it had to come direct from the business (ie no tipping culture). my perspective as a customer: tipping allows me to decide whether I want to pay extra for good service. if I just go to some restaurant occasionally, I'll just tip 18% or whatever and they at least won't spit in my food. on the other hand, if I go to some place all the time, I can tip 25% or more and get great service every time I go. tipping allows people who care about good service to pay for it, and it allows servers to allocate more of their time/attention to their best customers. having experienced both sides of it, I'm really not sure what the problem is, unless you're just visiting and don't understand the system.

parthdesai 8y ago
See i get it in US why tipping exists. I'm from Canada and our minimum wage isn't that bad. Like i said, it would be much better if restaurants owners reflected this cost in the prices for the food and every server made decent minimum wage. And frankly things have been getting ridiculous where a lot of machines have tip preselected to 18%. If i go to a coffee shop and order a drip coffee to go, they expect me to tip. And i like how you conveniently ignored the last paragraph. Do you tip any of the people i mentioned? Because, frankly a garbage men's services are way more useful and needed than a servers. Why do servers deserve a tip and not people working at clothing store? Or people working at Walmart?
- leetcrew 8y ago
  I didn't have any ulterior motive behind not addressing your other points; mainly I just wanted to share my perspective on things that I actually have experience with. I'll take a stab at a response now. first of all, mandatory tipping at a coffee shop or takeout place is dumb. afaik, these are not legally considered tipped positions and the employer is not usually allowed to count tips toward minimum wage. that said, I certainly recommend you throw a little extra in their tip jar if they actually provide outstanding service. > Do you tip any of the people i mentioned? Because, frankly a garbage men's services are way more useful and needed than a servers. Why do servers deserve a tip and not people working at clothing store? Or people working at Walmart? I don't claim that the tipping system is inherently moral or immoral. my claim is that it is a practical way to align incentives in a particular set of situations. in a restaurant, the difference between acceptable and great service is quite large. if I'm handling several tables, I'm usually going to get to the tables that tip well first. I'm going to make sure they're not in the middle of a deep conversation when I go over to check if the food is okay. there are tons of subtle things that a skilled server can do to improve your dining experience if they are incentivized. garbage men, on the other hand, either pick up your trash or they don't. idk what the difference between a good and a great garbage collector is, maybe the great one takes the time to leave my can sitting upright? a cashier can ring you up fast or take their time, but can't really affect your experience other than that. I do actually agree that maybe some retail positions should be tipped. I find that usually Walmart employees don't give a shit whether I find everything I'm looking for. occasionally one of them is super helpful and saves me 30min or more of hunting around the store. in these situations I try to slip them a couple bills. if they refuse, I make sure to find their supervisor on the way out and explain that they made the store a lot more money by helping me find my things.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

defaultprimate 8y ago

Because a "fair" wage is not merit based and most servers would leave the industry if they were not tipped. I was a server for over a decade, and a very good one at that. I did very well for myself, especially compared to similarly skilled labor. You pay more for a $400 bottle of wine because you decided to go to a restaurant and buy a $400 bottle of wine. If you don't want to do it, don't go. You're paying for the labor and service in the tier of restaurant you're at. Not just the act of opening a bottle of wine. The type of servers that work in places that serve a $400 bottle of wine are going to be a lot better than the person that works at Applebees. They're going to have extensive menu knowledge, usually know a lot about taste profiles of their food and beverages, multiple years of experience, etc. It's no different than freelance developer work. Compare the quality of service of people that do "their job" to those that are rewarded for doing their job exceptionally well on an individual basis. Serving food table-side is participating in one of the most intimate rituals of human existence. It's in a whole different tier of customer service than fast food, clothing, etc. Do you have any idea how much restaurants would have to raise their prices to pay a "fair wage"? Enough to where the number of servers they could employ would fall dramatically, not only disincentivizing great service, but also the pure availability of it. There are razor thin profit margins on food.

mattdeboard 8y ago
All true: - The system we have is internally consistent, which your comment very ably pointed out. - Restaurants are incentivized to employ workers whose pay falls under the "tipped workers" regulations. - Americans are used to tipping, and we understand the trade-offs, and those of us who don't work for tips (like you and me) generally like a tipping-based system. What's not to like about a system that gives us the power to control or punish service workers according to our whims? ;) Finally, citing profit margins as the reason to artificially depress payroll obligations of employers to employees might be accurate, but it's also a great example of how the system is broken: Why do restaurants exist that can't afford to pay their workers a fair wage?