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My gripe with the American unionization debacle is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, you're the pillars keeping the problem standing. It's the same with tip

My gripe with the American unionization debacle is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, you're the pillars keeping the problem standing. It's the same with tipping. If everyone suddenly stopped tipping, then people would not have enough wages to meet their obligations. This results in people not being able to pay rent etc., however, this also leads to a walk-out of the servers that don't want to work for under minimum wage anymore. The problem is that people that are tipping and servers that are encouraging the tipping are keeping the problem alive. It's the same thing with unionization, unionization is beneficial for workers, yet everyone keeps undercutting each other to stay afloat and meet their obligations. Because people can not properly cooperate and work together you are stuck in this bad equilibrium where companies have so much power over you. That being said, this exploitation of the working class has lead to a lot of technological innovation coming from the USA, let's not forget that. Of course, this has lead to a huge inequality and divide in social class and wealth. So that concludes my rant basically. Your attitude towards these kind of problems is complex, but completely human and understandable. No complex question has a simple answer ... but I think that this is a step in the right direction. I want to conclude that I'm a European, so if you feel like I completely missed the mark, please feel free to open a dialogue with me!

syrgian 8y ago
By your description of the problem it matches better the "Tragedy of the commons" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons) than a self-fulfilling prophecy. A self-fulfilling prophecy would be if the belief that unions fail to help workers made them fail to help workers (which also happens).
andreer 8y ago
Technological innovation can also arise as a consequence of the minimum wage being high. By increasing the cost of human labor, automation becomes relatively cheaper / more cost effective. Here in Norway this has led to the near complete elimination of classes of jobs. As a very visible example, we have no toll booth operators or garage attendants, these have been universally replaced by automatic license plate recognition. Thankfully we have a (relatively) good social safety net to take care of those who lose their jobs to such things.
- moosey 8y ago
  I feel strongly that any economic system where automation is bad for laborers is fundamentally broken. Each automation should lead to shorter work hours for someone, without loss in pay, because it's not like the productivity has gone away.
  - woah 8y ago
    Shorter work hours for who?
  - ericd 8y ago
    If I start a parking lot business, and want to put automatic gates, am I supposed to pay someone for the productivity of that automatic gate? And why should I have to do that?
    - nicoburns 8y ago
      A basic income would solve this kind if problem without putting the burden on individual businesses...
      - ericd 8y ago
        I agree with you, I just want to know what he's proposing.
defaultprimate 8y ago
What's the "problem" with tipping?
- rottyguy 8y ago
  I think it's somewhat insidious in that it forces a confrontation between workers and customers and the benefit goes to the owners. it also gives the impression that the product (lets say food) is 20% less than what is printed. yes I u/d tipping is optional, but it is more or less expected (at least in nyc) and you can be ostracized if you don't participate.
  - kennywinker 8y ago
    It’s not just expected - the servers are not making a living wage without it.
    - hedvig 8y ago
      This should not fall to the patrons. This is the problem of the business model. Remove tipping as an option, price the meals, and pay the employees a wage.
      - leetcrew 8y ago
        who are you advocating for here? if you're actually concerned for the servers, you might consider asking some of them for their opinion on tipping. most servers that I've talked to (including myself) actually like the system.
        pseudalopex 8y ago
        Some make good money and like it. Some would rather have more consistent pay and less emotional labor. Some think it's good for them but unfair to the back of the house. Some have seen it facilitate wage theft and hate it.
        nicoburns 8y ago
makotech222 8y ago
> That being said, this exploitation of the working class has lead to a lot of technological innovation coming from the USA This is one of the worst takes i've ever seen. Innovation doesn't come from exploitation, it comes from educated labor. They doctors/engineers/inventors would have done what they were going to do, regardless if someone was taking 50% of their labor as profit for themselves. In fact, it was probably in spite of. Russians went to space without any profit incentive whatsoever.
bliblah 8y ago
>It's the same thing with unionization, unionization is beneficial for workers, yet everyone keeps undercutting each other to stay afloat and meet their obligations. Because people can not properly cooperate and work together you are stuck in this bad equilibrium where companies have so much power over you. This is very true, the "best" (or should I say most succesful?) unions are those that have a monopsony (they control all the supply and there is only one buyer). The only recent victory I can recall is that airport workers are guaranteeda $19/hr minimum wage [1]. The other dimension that is brought on is that unions tend to be "corrupt" with the leaders taking advantage of their positions to "extort" money if they don't get favorable deals; some of these leaders also just pocket their earnings and don't spread the wealth. The mafia also infiltrated many of the unions in shipping and distribution to control the flow of drugs which has sullied the reputations of many unions in New York. [2] [1]https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/27/nyregion/airport-workers-minimum-wage-nyc.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/27/nyregion/airport-workers-... [2]https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ocgs/infiltrated-labor-unions https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ocgs/infiltrated-labor-unio...
usaphp 8y ago
> it’s the same with tipping Nowadays it’s even more ridiculous with payment terminals all set to 15%, 20%, 25% options and to tip $0 you have to go to “custom amount” and type 0. The most idiotic part about it is that most of the places that use this practice provide no service at all! You pick your food! You clean after yourself! What are you tipping them for???
- illegalsmile 8y ago
  Over the last five years or so I've noticed this movement where restaurants think it's cool to make the customer do the work. Wait in line and order, no table service, then walk to pick up your own food cafeteria style and finally to top it off bus it to the trash. Add to that have they charge you the same prices that a table-service restaurant would AND have their payment terminals setup as you describe. So I ask myself every time I unfortunately find myself in one of these restaurants, why would I tip for doing all the work? If I do tip, who is receiving the tip? I'm guessing it's not the people doing the work, i.e. the kitchen staff.
  - skybrian 8y ago
    This isn't because it's "cool." It's a side effect of higher wages in some cities. Restaurants can only raise prices so much, so they find ways to get by with less staff instead. But I somewhat prefer this way, actually, since you can leave quicker. I haven't heard of any cases where the money doesn't go to staff, have you? That seems rather illegal.
    - gl00pp 8y ago
      Amy's Baking Company https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvc_BfG45VU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvc_BfG45VU
  - jds375 8y ago
    Agree with the point about tipping. As for why this is happening see https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/dining/san-francisco-restaurants-service.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/dining/san-francisco-rest...
kamaal 8y ago
>>The problem is that people that are tipping and servers that are encouraging the tipping are keeping the problem alive. The institution of beggary is surviving in India for the same problems. The government even has beggars cess, taxes to train beggars into a decent profession. Nothing works because some one always pays, and therefore there is an incentive for it to continue.

syrgian 8y ago

By your description of the problem it matches better the "Tragedy of the commons" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons) than a self-fulfilling prophecy. A self-fulfilling prophecy would be if the belief that unions fail to help workers made them fail to help workers (which also happens).

andreer 8y ago

Technological innovation can also arise as a consequence of the minimum wage being high. By increasing the cost of human labor, automation becomes relatively cheaper / more cost effective. Here in Norway this has led to the near complete elimination of classes of jobs. As a very visible example, we have no toll booth operators or garage attendants, these have been universally replaced by automatic license plate recognition. Thankfully we have a (relatively) good social safety net to take care of those who lose their jobs to such things.

moosey 8y ago
I feel strongly that any economic system where automation is bad for laborers is fundamentally broken. Each automation should lead to shorter work hours for someone, without loss in pay, because it's not like the productivity has gone away.
- woah 8y ago
  Shorter work hours for who?
- ericd 8y ago
  If I start a parking lot business, and want to put automatic gates, am I supposed to pay someone for the productivity of that automatic gate? And why should I have to do that?
  - nicoburns 8y ago
    A basic income would solve this kind if problem without putting the burden on individual businesses...
    - ericd 8y ago
      I agree with you, I just want to know what he's proposing.

defaultprimate 8y ago

What's the "problem" with tipping?

rottyguy 8y ago
I think it's somewhat insidious in that it forces a confrontation between workers and customers and the benefit goes to the owners. it also gives the impression that the product (lets say food) is 20% less than what is printed. yes I u/d tipping is optional, but it is more or less expected (at least in nyc) and you can be ostracized if you don't participate.
- kennywinker 8y ago
  It’s not just expected - the servers are not making a living wage without it.
  - hedvig 8y ago
    This should not fall to the patrons. This is the problem of the business model. Remove tipping as an option, price the meals, and pay the employees a wage.
    - leetcrew 8y ago
      who are you advocating for here? if you're actually concerned for the servers, you might consider asking some of them for their opinion on tipping. most servers that I've talked to (including myself) actually like the system.
      - pseudalopex 8y ago
        Some make good money and like it. Some would rather have more consistent pay and less emotional labor. Some think it's good for them but unfair to the back of the house. Some have seen it facilitate wage theft and hate it.
      - nicoburns 8y ago

makotech222 8y ago

> That being said, this exploitation of the working class has lead to a lot of technological innovation coming from the USA This is one of the worst takes i've ever seen. Innovation doesn't come from exploitation, it comes from educated labor. They doctors/engineers/inventors would have done what they were going to do, regardless if someone was taking 50% of their labor as profit for themselves. In fact, it was probably in spite of. Russians went to space without any profit incentive whatsoever.

bliblah 8y ago

>It's the same thing with unionization, unionization is beneficial for workers, yet everyone keeps undercutting each other to stay afloat and meet their obligations. Because people can not properly cooperate and work together you are stuck in this bad equilibrium where companies have so much power over you. This is very true, the "best" (or should I say most succesful?) unions are those that have a monopsony (they control all the supply and there is only one buyer). The only recent victory I can recall is that airport workers are guaranteeda $19/hr minimum wage [1]. The other dimension that is brought on is that unions tend to be "corrupt" with the leaders taking advantage of their positions to "extort" money if they don't get favorable deals; some of these leaders also just pocket their earnings and don't spread the wealth. The mafia also infiltrated many of the unions in shipping and distribution to control the flow of drugs which has sullied the reputations of many unions in New York. [2] [1]https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/27/nyregion/airport-workers-minimum-wage-nyc.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/27/nyregion/airport-workers-... [2]https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ocgs/infiltrated-labor-unions https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ocgs/infiltrated-labor-unio...

usaphp 8y ago

> it’s the same with tipping Nowadays it’s even more ridiculous with payment terminals all set to 15%, 20%, 25% options and to tip $0 you have to go to “custom amount” and type 0. The most idiotic part about it is that most of the places that use this practice provide no service at all! You pick your food! You clean after yourself! What are you tipping them for???

illegalsmile 8y ago
Over the last five years or so I've noticed this movement where restaurants think it's cool to make the customer do the work. Wait in line and order, no table service, then walk to pick up your own food cafeteria style and finally to top it off bus it to the trash. Add to that have they charge you the same prices that a table-service restaurant would AND have their payment terminals setup as you describe. So I ask myself every time I unfortunately find myself in one of these restaurants, why would I tip for doing all the work? If I do tip, who is receiving the tip? I'm guessing it's not the people doing the work, i.e. the kitchen staff.
- skybrian 8y ago
  This isn't because it's "cool." It's a side effect of higher wages in some cities. Restaurants can only raise prices so much, so they find ways to get by with less staff instead. But I somewhat prefer this way, actually, since you can leave quicker. I haven't heard of any cases where the money doesn't go to staff, have you? That seems rather illegal.
  - gl00pp 8y ago
    Amy's Baking Company https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvc_BfG45VU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvc_BfG45VU
- jds375 8y ago
  Agree with the point about tipping. As for why this is happening see https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/dining/san-francisco-restaurants-service.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/dining/san-francisco-rest...

kamaal 8y ago

>>The problem is that people that are tipping and servers that are encouraging the tipping are keeping the problem alive. The institution of beggary is surviving in India for the same problems. The government even has beggars cess, taxes to train beggars into a decent profession. Nothing works because some one always pays, and therefore there is an incentive for it to continue.