6 ms·

$19 an hour for warehouse work? I can see why they need to unionize instead of just finding somebody willing to pay more, nobody else is going to pay that for a

$19 an hour for warehouse work? I can see why they need to unionize instead of just finding somebody willing to pay more, nobody else is going to pay that for any comparable unskilled workload.

fiblye 8y ago
$19 is basically minimum wage in the NYC area. If even that.
- mhaymo 8y ago
  NYC minimum wage is <=$15, depending on the employer and area. https://www.ny.gov/new-york-states-minimum-wage/new-york-states-minimum-wage https://www.ny.gov/new-york-states-minimum-wage/new-york-sta...
  - fiblye 8y ago
    And nobody is getting by on $15 in or near NYC. It's nowhere near the minimum wage needed to survive.
    - Karunamon 8y ago
      The term you're looking for then is "living wage". "Minimum wage" is a purely legal definition that means the least amount you're allowed to pay.
jgh 8y ago
They're occasionally the largest company in the world, headed by the richest man in the world. I'm sure they can find the money somewhere to pay their employees a decent wage.
- sparkling 8y ago
  Ahhh, the "XYZ is a billion dollar company!!1! they can afford to pay $x to their employees" argument. Guys, i suggest looking at some of these companies balance sheets. In many cases (Walmarts, McDonalds...) even a small 5% pay raise for all employees would eat every single penny of profits.
  - jgh 8y ago
    Good.
  - krapp 8y ago
    >Guys, i suggest looking at some of these companies balance sheets. In many cases (Walmarts, McDonalds...) even a small 5% pay raise for all employees would eat every single penny of profits. Is this the conclusion you reached after reading Amazon's balance sheets? If so, would you mind sharing your research?
    - zeroname 8y ago
      I've actually looked at it, taking all $3 billion of Amazon's 2017 profit and dividing it among its 500,000 employees adds up to 6000$. To be fair though, they aren't making money on fulfillment really, they're cross-subsidizing it with their more profitable segments which also do not require that many workers. In that sense it isn't comparable with Wal-Mart and McDonalds.
      - jammygit 8y ago
        I used to work in warehouses, years ago. Even $1000 would have meant an extra trip to the dentist that year and maybe some new clothes more than once per 2 years.
  - ionised 8y ago
    Then that company shouldn't exist.
    - scroot 8y ago
ForHackernews 8y ago
HN: If you're a programmer making only $250k/year, you're basically on poverty rations. Also HN: I can't believe these blue collar workers are demanding more than $20/hour!
- walshemj 8y ago
  I don't think that anyone here was saying blue collar workers should not get more that $20. And relatively speaking IT/Engineering professions are paid a lot less (and have less status) than say lawyers and other equivalent professions.
  - jgh 8y ago
    The comment this person was replying to seems to be saying exactly that....
  - ForHackernews 8y ago
    IT/software development is not a "profession". Real professionals have autonomy and higher obligations than to their employer. They subscribe to a code of professional ethics, and they have personal liability at stake in their conduct at work. Good lawyers or accountants will not commit professional malpractice just because a client tells them to. In contrast, software flunkies will build whatever unethical features they're paid to. Software devs are hired hands who are play-acting as professionals because of their status anxiety.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      "Good lawyers or accountants will not commit professional malpractice just because a client tells them to. " It seems to me that a lot of corporate lawyers behave more like hired hitmen who will do pretty much anything for their clients. It doesn't feel like they don't subscribe to any ethical code other than trying to get away with whatever the law may allow.
      - walshemj 8y ago
stfwn 8y ago
You gave them a 2% raise, the article mentions $18.60. We don't know if this is before or after tax, so let's say it's before. If they work 40h a week, rent a single bedroom apartment at ~$1600 and the cost of living for one is ~$800 this leaves 2976 - 2400 = ~576 a month without special circumstances. In this case they don't have a car, drinks or meals outside the home, going out (movies/etc.), alcohol, dog, sport membership or travel and certainly no family. If they have one family member at ~600 a month they are down 24 dollars a month so they'd better not. [1] Simply seeing that Amazon is doing so mindbogglingly well for itself that the value of their assets has grown by 52.65% in 2017[2] and while still holding ~22 billion dollars in reserve[3], workers are not adding some value (as is required in a Keynesian capitalist system) but an insane amount of value. And it is all trickling up while workers cannot afford to have a family. [1]: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Long-Island-NY-United-States https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Long-Island-NY-Unit... [2]: https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/amzn/financials/balance-sheet https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/amzn/financials/... [3]: https://www.geekwire.com/2017/256-billion-apple-cash-amazon-microsoft-google-combined/ https://www.geekwire.com/2017/256-billion-apple-cash-amazon-...
- prepend 8y ago
  At this wage, it would be unwise to live alone in a single bedroom apartment and would be much smarter, although more difficult, to get roommates to reduce rent costs by 25-50%.
  - jgh 8y ago
    LOL this is such a typical HN reply. "Just get room mates". Come on, the solution is to pay people so they can live a decent life and have a family if they want to.
    - zeroname 8y ago
      > Come on, the solution is to pay people so they can live a decent life and have a family if they want to. That's not up for a company to decide, they don't control all the prices and sentiments that determine what is and isn't "decent to live". They can decide what they can pay to hire an extra worker and make more money as a result. If they don't believe they'll make more money as a result, then there's no hire.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
$19ish/hr seems like a perfectly fair mid-teens wage for warehouse work with a couple dollars tacked on to make up for the fact that it's a shitty, "fast paced", meat-grinder that doesn't give you enough time to take a piss. The workers want less crappy working conditions. I understand that. The problem is that their pay is what it is in order to make up for the crappy working conditions. I don't think unionization will help here. Warehouses can already be automated to a much greater extent than Amazon does. I suspect that at ~$19/hr Amazon is very close to the break-even point for replacing pickers with automation. Edit: Picking inventory is fully automated in some warehouses in places with lower wages than NYC (Summit Racing for example). It stands to reason that combined with the higher than typical wages, whatever the break even point is an Amazon warehouse in NYC is far closer to it than anyone else.
- perfmode 8y ago
  > I suspect that at ~$19/hr Amazon is very close to the break-even point for replacing pickers with automation. Why do you suspect this? The labor market is far from an efficient market.

$19 an hour for warehouse work? I can see why they need to unionize instead of just finding somebody willing to pay more, nobody else is going to pay that for any comparable unskilled workload.

fiblye 8y ago

$19 is basically minimum wage in the NYC area. If even that.

mhaymo 8y ago
NYC minimum wage is <=$15, depending on the employer and area. https://www.ny.gov/new-york-states-minimum-wage/new-york-states-minimum-wage https://www.ny.gov/new-york-states-minimum-wage/new-york-sta...
- fiblye 8y ago
  And nobody is getting by on $15 in or near NYC. It's nowhere near the minimum wage needed to survive.
  - Karunamon 8y ago
    The term you're looking for then is "living wage". "Minimum wage" is a purely legal definition that means the least amount you're allowed to pay.

jgh 8y ago

They're occasionally the largest company in the world, headed by the richest man in the world. I'm sure they can find the money somewhere to pay their employees a decent wage.

sparkling 8y ago
Ahhh, the "XYZ is a billion dollar company!!1! they can afford to pay $x to their employees" argument. Guys, i suggest looking at some of these companies balance sheets. In many cases (Walmarts, McDonalds...) even a small 5% pay raise for all employees would eat every single penny of profits.
- jgh 8y ago
  Good.
- krapp 8y ago
  >Guys, i suggest looking at some of these companies balance sheets. In many cases (Walmarts, McDonalds...) even a small 5% pay raise for all employees would eat every single penny of profits. Is this the conclusion you reached after reading Amazon's balance sheets? If so, would you mind sharing your research?
  - zeroname 8y ago
    I've actually looked at it, taking all $3 billion of Amazon's 2017 profit and dividing it among its 500,000 employees adds up to 6000$. To be fair though, they aren't making money on fulfillment really, they're cross-subsidizing it with their more profitable segments which also do not require that many workers. In that sense it isn't comparable with Wal-Mart and McDonalds.
    - jammygit 8y ago
      I used to work in warehouses, years ago. Even $1000 would have meant an extra trip to the dentist that year and maybe some new clothes more than once per 2 years.
- ionised 8y ago
  Then that company shouldn't exist.
  - scroot 8y ago

ForHackernews 8y ago

HN: If you're a programmer making only $250k/year, you're basically on poverty rations. Also HN: I can't believe these blue collar workers are demanding more than $20/hour!

walshemj 8y ago
I don't think that anyone here was saying blue collar workers should not get more that $20. And relatively speaking IT/Engineering professions are paid a lot less (and have less status) than say lawyers and other equivalent professions.
- jgh 8y ago
  The comment this person was replying to seems to be saying exactly that....
- ForHackernews 8y ago
  IT/software development is not a "profession". Real professionals have autonomy and higher obligations than to their employer. They subscribe to a code of professional ethics, and they have personal liability at stake in their conduct at work. Good lawyers or accountants will not commit professional malpractice just because a client tells them to. In contrast, software flunkies will build whatever unethical features they're paid to. Software devs are hired hands who are play-acting as professionals because of their status anxiety.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    "Good lawyers or accountants will not commit professional malpractice just because a client tells them to. " It seems to me that a lot of corporate lawyers behave more like hired hitmen who will do pretty much anything for their clients. It doesn't feel like they don't subscribe to any ethical code other than trying to get away with whatever the law may allow.
    - walshemj 8y ago

stfwn 8y ago

You gave them a 2% raise, the article mentions $18.60. We don't know if this is before or after tax, so let's say it's before. If they work 40h a week, rent a single bedroom apartment at ~$1600 and the cost of living for one is ~$800 this leaves 2976 - 2400 = ~576 a month without special circumstances. In this case they don't have a car, drinks or meals outside the home, going out (movies/etc.), alcohol, dog, sport membership or travel and certainly no family. If they have one family member at ~600 a month they are down 24 dollars a month so they'd better not. [1] Simply seeing that Amazon is doing so mindbogglingly well for itself that the value of their assets has grown by 52.65% in 2017[2] and while still holding ~22 billion dollars in reserve[3], workers are not adding some value (as is required in a Keynesian capitalist system) but an insane amount of value. And it is all trickling up while workers cannot afford to have a family. [1]: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Long-Island-NY-United-States https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Long-Island-NY-Unit... [2]: https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/amzn/financials/balance-sheet https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/amzn/financials/... [3]: https://www.geekwire.com/2017/256-billion-apple-cash-amazon-microsoft-google-combined/ https://www.geekwire.com/2017/256-billion-apple-cash-amazon-...

prepend 8y ago
At this wage, it would be unwise to live alone in a single bedroom apartment and would be much smarter, although more difficult, to get roommates to reduce rent costs by 25-50%.
- jgh 8y ago
  LOL this is such a typical HN reply. "Just get room mates". Come on, the solution is to pay people so they can live a decent life and have a family if they want to.
  - zeroname 8y ago
    > Come on, the solution is to pay people so they can live a decent life and have a family if they want to. That's not up for a company to decide, they don't control all the prices and sentiments that determine what is and isn't "decent to live". They can decide what they can pay to hire an extra worker and make more money as a result. If they don't believe they'll make more money as a result, then there's no hire.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

$19ish/hr seems like a perfectly fair mid-teens wage for warehouse work with a couple dollars tacked on to make up for the fact that it's a shitty, "fast paced", meat-grinder that doesn't give you enough time to take a piss. The workers want less crappy working conditions. I understand that. The problem is that their pay is what it is in order to make up for the crappy working conditions. I don't think unionization will help here. Warehouses can already be automated to a much greater extent than Amazon does. I suspect that at ~$19/hr Amazon is very close to the break-even point for replacing pickers with automation. Edit: Picking inventory is fully automated in some warehouses in places with lower wages than NYC (Summit Racing for example). It stands to reason that combined with the higher than typical wages, whatever the break even point is an Amazon warehouse in NYC is far closer to it than anyone else.

perfmode 8y ago
> I suspect that at ~$19/hr Amazon is very close to the break-even point for replacing pickers with automation. Why do you suspect this? The labor market is far from an efficient market.