5 ms·

I had a completely opposite experience with freebsd. It felt like a fossil from the past, the boot time was immensely bigger than that on linux with systemd, dr

I had a completely opposite experience with freebsd. It felt like a fossil from the past, the boot time was immensely bigger than that on linux with systemd, drivers are old (drm drivers are very old and mostly backported from linux). The init system is lacking, service maintenance is basically absent. There are also no killer features over linux, beyond zfs and (doubtfully) jails. Even if you are a systemd hater (which is imho unreasonable), you could stick to linux without systemd and have a better hardware and software support. {Open,net}bsd are another story, though.

boomboomsubban 8y ago
>drivers are old (drm drivers are very old and mostly backported from linux). The ones in base are fairly old, but the ones in ports are equivalent to Linux 4.16, so about six months old. Yes they're ported from Linux, I don't see why that's a problem. The rest of your post can be summed up with "I like systemd." That's fine, other people disagree.
- ernst_klim 8y ago
  >The ones in base are fairly old, but the ones in ports are equivalent to Linux 4.16, so about six months old. Yes they're ported from Linux, I don't see why that's a problem. Is this matrix outdated? https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics/AMD-GPU-Matrix https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics/AMD-GPU-Matrix >The rest of your post can be summed up with "I like systemd." It's not about systemd in particular, it's about modern service and system management in general https://www.freebsdnews.com/2018/08/21/benno-rice-the-tragedy-of-systemd-bsdcan-2018/ https://www.freebsdnews.com/2018/08/21/benno-rice-the-traged... You also forget about software argument, why to use freebsd if you would use linux-layer all the way.
  - boomboomsubban 8y ago
    >Is this matrix outdated? I would guess that it is reflecting the drivers in base, the page above that gives directions on using this driver in ports. https://www.freshports.org/graphics/drm-fbsd12.0-kmod/ https://www.freshports.org/graphics/drm-fbsd12.0-kmod/ I'm sure improvements could be made to FreeBSD init, but all you're saying is you'd prefer one more like systemd. Then you're free to use something else. >You also forget about software argument, why to use freebsd if you would use linux-layer all the way. You aren't using a Linux layer all the way, you are for video card drivers. As for why, they're free software. Using the Linux ones makes more sense than building new ones from scratch.
    - ernst_klim 8y ago
      >4.16 DRM I see. For 11.2 its 4.11, so it didn't support my vega card. Upgrade to 12 leaded me to kernel panic on startup on my shitty laptop's cpu, this bug [1]. >You aren't using a Linux layer all the way, you are for video card drivers. I was talking about lack of hardware and software support, so you need a compatibility layer for commercial linux software. [1] https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=233534 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=233534
      - loeg 8y ago
        > I was talking about lack of hardware and software support, so you need a compatibility layer for commercial linux software. The linuxkpi kernel API compatibility layer is for open source software (e.g., dual-licensed BSD/GPL Linux DRM drivers), not for commercial Linux software. The linuxemul syscall ABI layer can be used to run commercial Linux software, but is an entirely different and unrelated component. It has nothing to do with hardware support. This is like claiming that because WINE exists, Linux uses Windows for hardware support.
loeg 8y ago
> the boot time was immensely bigger than that on linux with systemd FreeBSD dev here. This is a totally valid criticism of FreeBSD. Systemd has done a lot for Linux despite the controversial nature of way it has done it, as well as the continued scope creep that draws hostility. One thing it did from the very beginning was provide first-class service management and real on-demand service launch, in parallel. We could learn some lessons from systemd. > drm drivers are very old and mostly backported from linux They're completely backported from Linux; that's true. You can install drm-kmod from ports and automatically get an appropriate drm depending on your installed FreeBSD version: fbsd11.2 for 11.1, fbsd12.0 for 12.0, current for CURRENT (head). fbsd11.2 is on Linux 4.11; the rest are on Linux 4.16. That's not super old (April 2018). There is also the drm-legacy-kmod, which contains the ancient Linux ~3.8 drm drivers backport. It isn't suggested for most users and is mostly present for very old, insecure hardware that Linux no longer supports (e.g., mach64, mga, r128, savage, sis, tdfx, via) and proprietary ARM products (mmel@ wrote an angry screed to a private mailing list his TEGRA-based product absolutely depended on these obsolete Linux drivers) that have not yet updated to newer DRM versions. > The init system is lacking, service maintenance is basically absent. Totally agree. > There are also no killer features over linux, That isn't quite true, as you point out. ZFS and jails are significant features. Capsicum is a significant security feature.

boomboomsubban 8y ago

>drivers are old (drm drivers are very old and mostly backported from linux). The ones in base are fairly old, but the ones in ports are equivalent to Linux 4.16, so about six months old. Yes they're ported from Linux, I don't see why that's a problem. The rest of your post can be summed up with "I like systemd." That's fine, other people disagree.

ernst_klim 8y ago
>The ones in base are fairly old, but the ones in ports are equivalent to Linux 4.16, so about six months old. Yes they're ported from Linux, I don't see why that's a problem. Is this matrix outdated? https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics/AMD-GPU-Matrix https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics/AMD-GPU-Matrix >The rest of your post can be summed up with "I like systemd." It's not about systemd in particular, it's about modern service and system management in general https://www.freebsdnews.com/2018/08/21/benno-rice-the-tragedy-of-systemd-bsdcan-2018/ https://www.freebsdnews.com/2018/08/21/benno-rice-the-traged... You also forget about software argument, why to use freebsd if you would use linux-layer all the way.
- boomboomsubban 8y ago
  >Is this matrix outdated? I would guess that it is reflecting the drivers in base, the page above that gives directions on using this driver in ports. https://www.freshports.org/graphics/drm-fbsd12.0-kmod/ https://www.freshports.org/graphics/drm-fbsd12.0-kmod/ I'm sure improvements could be made to FreeBSD init, but all you're saying is you'd prefer one more like systemd. Then you're free to use something else. >You also forget about software argument, why to use freebsd if you would use linux-layer all the way. You aren't using a Linux layer all the way, you are for video card drivers. As for why, they're free software. Using the Linux ones makes more sense than building new ones from scratch.
  - ernst_klim 8y ago
    >4.16 DRM I see. For 11.2 its 4.11, so it didn't support my vega card. Upgrade to 12 leaded me to kernel panic on startup on my shitty laptop's cpu, this bug [1]. >You aren't using a Linux layer all the way, you are for video card drivers. I was talking about lack of hardware and software support, so you need a compatibility layer for commercial linux software. [1] https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=233534 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=233534
    - loeg 8y ago
      > I was talking about lack of hardware and software support, so you need a compatibility layer for commercial linux software. The linuxkpi kernel API compatibility layer is for open source software (e.g., dual-licensed BSD/GPL Linux DRM drivers), not for commercial Linux software. The linuxemul syscall ABI layer can be used to run commercial Linux software, but is an entirely different and unrelated component. It has nothing to do with hardware support. This is like claiming that because WINE exists, Linux uses Windows for hardware support.

loeg 8y ago

> the boot time was immensely bigger than that on linux with systemd FreeBSD dev here. This is a totally valid criticism of FreeBSD. Systemd has done a lot for Linux despite the controversial nature of way it has done it, as well as the continued scope creep that draws hostility. One thing it did from the very beginning was provide first-class service management and real on-demand service launch, in parallel. We could learn some lessons from systemd. > drm drivers are very old and mostly backported from linux They're completely backported from Linux; that's true. You can install drm-kmod from ports and automatically get an appropriate drm depending on your installed FreeBSD version: fbsd11.2 for 11.1, fbsd12.0 for 12.0, current for CURRENT (head). fbsd11.2 is on Linux 4.11; the rest are on Linux 4.16. That's not super old (April 2018). There is also the drm-legacy-kmod, which contains the ancient Linux ~3.8 drm drivers backport. It isn't suggested for most users and is mostly present for very old, insecure hardware that Linux no longer supports (e.g., mach64, mga, r128, savage, sis, tdfx, via) and proprietary ARM products (mmel@ wrote an angry screed to a private mailing list his TEGRA-based product absolutely depended on these obsolete Linux drivers) that have not yet updated to newer DRM versions. > The init system is lacking, service maintenance is basically absent. Totally agree. > There are also no killer features over linux, That isn't quite true, as you point out. ZFS and jails are significant features. Capsicum is a significant security feature.