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I disagree because 1) Bill Shorten goaded the PM to stay late at parliament and pass the bill “to protect Australians” with no amendments on a vague promise. 2

I disagree because 1) Bill Shorten goaded the PM to stay late at parliament and pass the bill “to protect Australians” with no amendments on a vague promise. 2) those with courage resign and sit on the cross bench (as we have seen recently).

ux-app 8y ago
> those with courage resign and sit on the cross bench you expect Shorten to go to the cross bench? get real.
- aplummer 8y ago
  The point I was making is nobody is forced to vote for anything, which is true. Anyone in the ALP could have voted against the bill and moved to the cross bench. The “get real” response is where the courage comes into play.
  - ux-app 8y ago
    This is, at best, a very fringe issue for the voting public. That's sad, and I'm disappointed that it's turned out this way, but seriously, it is the only sane position for Labor to take right now. You can't affect much change from the cross bench and Labor are poised to win in a landslide. Politically it makes no sense to make this an issue. You know it and I know it. Other than political suicide over an issue that 99.99% of Aussies couldn't formulate a coherent argument around, what could Labor have done? And be realistic in your rebuttal. Dying on their sword only to potentially lose the coming election is idiotic, and irrational, regardless of what we, the tech literate think about the issue.
    - mirimir 8y ago
      > Other than political suicide over an issue that 99.99% of Aussies couldn't formulate a coherent argument around, what could Labor have done? So "99.99% of Aussies" don't care that their software industry (or at least, security-related stuff) gets destroyed, and Australian engineers etc become unemployable?
      - ux-app 8y ago
        >So "99.99% of Aussies" don't care that their software industry (or at least, security-related stuff) gets destroyed Yes, I'm sorry, but in AU "Information Media and Telecommunications" sector employment made up 1.7% of all employed people [1]. Most Aussies don't care about your nerdy tech job :( and FWIW that makes me really sad. [1] https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1718/Quick_Guides/EmployIndustry https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Depart...
        flukus 8y ago
        That goes both ways, you think they're going to care about scomo pushing for this legislation they don't understand? He'd have more success continuing the great onion debate.
        mirimir 8y ago
        Huh. I had no clue. But on the other hand, there's this: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/48791677FF5B2814CA256A1D0001FECD?Opendocument http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/48791677FF5B2814CA... Having a little time, I massaged that. See: https://keybase.pub/mirimir/AU-industries.pdf https://keybase.pub/mirimir/AU-industries.pdf So maybe more like 10% could be affected?
        ux-app 8y ago
        >So maybe more like 10% could be affected? Sorry I didn't have a chance to dig into your data, but even if it were 10%, that leaves 90% who are uninformed/disinterested and are easily swayed by the rhetoric: "If you've got nothing to hide then you are fine", "Do you want to protect ISIS from ASIO eyes?" etc... The for case is so easily won in the public sphere that it's laughable. I wish it were otherwise, but most people cannot understand where we come from because they lack the background knowledge. We're not special in that regard. As tech people we oppose this bill. How many other crappy bills pass without any protest from us nerds, just because we don't understand the particulars of climate/jobs/pollution/forestry/land management/policing/urban development etc.etc.etc.?

ux-app 8y ago

> those with courage resign and sit on the cross bench you expect Shorten to go to the cross bench? get real.

aplummer 8y ago
The point I was making is nobody is forced to vote for anything, which is true. Anyone in the ALP could have voted against the bill and moved to the cross bench. The “get real” response is where the courage comes into play.
- ux-app 8y ago
  This is, at best, a very fringe issue for the voting public. That's sad, and I'm disappointed that it's turned out this way, but seriously, it is the only sane position for Labor to take right now. You can't affect much change from the cross bench and Labor are poised to win in a landslide. Politically it makes no sense to make this an issue. You know it and I know it. Other than political suicide over an issue that 99.99% of Aussies couldn't formulate a coherent argument around, what could Labor have done? And be realistic in your rebuttal. Dying on their sword only to potentially lose the coming election is idiotic, and irrational, regardless of what we, the tech literate think about the issue.
  - mirimir 8y ago
    > Other than political suicide over an issue that 99.99% of Aussies couldn't formulate a coherent argument around, what could Labor have done? So "99.99% of Aussies" don't care that their software industry (or at least, security-related stuff) gets destroyed, and Australian engineers etc become unemployable?
    - ux-app 8y ago
      >So "99.99% of Aussies" don't care that their software industry (or at least, security-related stuff) gets destroyed Yes, I'm sorry, but in AU "Information Media and Telecommunications" sector employment made up 1.7% of all employed people [1]. Most Aussies don't care about your nerdy tech job :( and FWIW that makes me really sad. [1] https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1718/Quick_Guides/EmployIndustry https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Depart...
      - flukus 8y ago
        That goes both ways, you think they're going to care about scomo pushing for this legislation they don't understand? He'd have more success continuing the great onion debate.
      - mirimir 8y ago
        Huh. I had no clue. But on the other hand, there's this: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/48791677FF5B2814CA256A1D0001FECD?Opendocument http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/48791677FF5B2814CA... Having a little time, I massaged that. See: https://keybase.pub/mirimir/AU-industries.pdf https://keybase.pub/mirimir/AU-industries.pdf So maybe more like 10% could be affected?
        ux-app 8y ago
        >So maybe more like 10% could be affected? Sorry I didn't have a chance to dig into your data, but even if it were 10%, that leaves 90% who are uninformed/disinterested and are easily swayed by the rhetoric: "If you've got nothing to hide then you are fine", "Do you want to protect ISIS from ASIO eyes?" etc... The for case is so easily won in the public sphere that it's laughable. I wish it were otherwise, but most people cannot understand where we come from because they lack the background knowledge. We're not special in that regard. As tech people we oppose this bill. How many other crappy bills pass without any protest from us nerds, just because we don't understand the particulars of climate/jobs/pollution/forestry/land management/policing/urban development etc.etc.etc.?