6 ms·

Without perpetual growth wouldn't those who are not already well off have almost no hope of getting ahead? That is, it seems like currently the system only wor

Without perpetual growth wouldn't those who are not already well off have almost no hope of getting ahead? That is, it seems like currently the system only works for at least the middle class because people can invest in 401ks and mutual funds. If those were taken away then what would the non 1% have left? Edit: To be clear, I mean this as an honest question. I see a lot of smart people arguing that expectations of growth need to change in order to tackle issues like global warming, but I don't see a scenario where that doesn't result in most people becoming serfs.

jgh 8y ago
It is conceivable that capitalism is not necessarily the best economic system for stability and sustainability. There is no reason wealth and income inequality should be so high. Why should most of humanity suffer so that we at the top can take and take? Downvotes from the cowards, of course. Let's all continue to sit at the top and wait for the guillotines, pretending like we're not part of the problem.
- Carlton87 8y ago
  The USA doesn't have to worry about the guillotines, we are armed to the tooth where I'm from. A simple fact is that all 7 billion people can't live like upper middle class Americans, it's impossible. Why not have one place in the world that a huge number of people sit at the top? I guess the major difference is I see myself as an American Citizen and not a Global Citizen.
  - jgh 8y ago
    > A simple fact is that all 7 billion people can't live like upper middle class Americans, it's impossible. Why not have one place in the world that a huge number of people sit at the top? Because winning the birth lottery gets you to the top, otherwise if you're from somewhere else in the world...good luck. Of course 7 billion people can't live like upper middle class americans. Upper middle class americans are going to have to bring their lifestyle down to a sustainable level. We have a myriad of problems at this moment in time, some of them existential. I have very little sympathy for people who think we should maintain the status quo in the face of these problems.
    - harimau777 8y ago
      I'm not sure there are good alternatives in the US. If you want a decent job, a family, and to live somewhere that that is progressive and not boring, then you pretty much have to make upper middle class money.
    - Carlton87 8y ago
      Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first. I don't see that class giving up lifestyle changes to prop up the third world and if you try to take it, in the south, they are armed. Which is the reason our 2nd Amendment exists.
- jlawson 8y ago
  https://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/World-Poverty-Since-1820.png https://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/World-... Seems to be working very well so far. The record for those large societies that went for alternatives to capitalism are... not so good.
  - harimau777 8y ago
    I don't know, Scandinavia and Europe seem to be doing pretty well.
    - jlawson 8y ago
      Yep - because they're market economies. Index of economic freedom: Sweden 76.3 US 75.7 Norway 74.3 Finland 74.1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom
- tomjen3 8y ago
  Socialism in its various forms killed 100 million in the 20th century. In 26 years between 1990 and 2016, 1 billion people[0] were pulled out of extreme poverty. It wouldn't be difficult at all to level the gini-coifficient, just do what the Soviets did and make sure nobody has any food[1]. Then we can all become equally starving and everybody can be equally dead. [0]: https://qz.com/798481/over-a-billion-people-have-been-lifted-out-of-poverty-since-1990-but-the-next-billion-will-be-harder/ https://qz.com/798481/over-a-billion-people-have-been-lifted... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

jgh 8y ago

It is conceivable that capitalism is not necessarily the best economic system for stability and sustainability. There is no reason wealth and income inequality should be so high. Why should most of humanity suffer so that we at the top can take and take? Downvotes from the cowards, of course. Let's all continue to sit at the top and wait for the guillotines, pretending like we're not part of the problem.

Carlton87 8y ago
The USA doesn't have to worry about the guillotines, we are armed to the tooth where I'm from. A simple fact is that all 7 billion people can't live like upper middle class Americans, it's impossible. Why not have one place in the world that a huge number of people sit at the top? I guess the major difference is I see myself as an American Citizen and not a Global Citizen.
- jgh 8y ago
  > A simple fact is that all 7 billion people can't live like upper middle class Americans, it's impossible. Why not have one place in the world that a huge number of people sit at the top? Because winning the birth lottery gets you to the top, otherwise if you're from somewhere else in the world...good luck. Of course 7 billion people can't live like upper middle class americans. Upper middle class americans are going to have to bring their lifestyle down to a sustainable level. We have a myriad of problems at this moment in time, some of them existential. I have very little sympathy for people who think we should maintain the status quo in the face of these problems.
  - harimau777 8y ago
    I'm not sure there are good alternatives in the US. If you want a decent job, a family, and to live somewhere that that is progressive and not boring, then you pretty much have to make upper middle class money.
  - Carlton87 8y ago
    Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first. I don't see that class giving up lifestyle changes to prop up the third world and if you try to take it, in the south, they are armed. Which is the reason our 2nd Amendment exists.
jlawson 8y ago
https://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/World-Poverty-Since-1820.png https://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/World-... Seems to be working very well so far. The record for those large societies that went for alternatives to capitalism are... not so good.
- harimau777 8y ago
  I don't know, Scandinavia and Europe seem to be doing pretty well.
  - jlawson 8y ago
    Yep - because they're market economies. Index of economic freedom: Sweden 76.3 US 75.7 Norway 74.3 Finland 74.1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom
tomjen3 8y ago
Socialism in its various forms killed 100 million in the 20th century. In 26 years between 1990 and 2016, 1 billion people[0] were pulled out of extreme poverty. It wouldn't be difficult at all to level the gini-coifficient, just do what the Soviets did and make sure nobody has any food[1]. Then we can all become equally starving and everybody can be equally dead. [0]: https://qz.com/798481/over-a-billion-people-have-been-lifted-out-of-poverty-since-1990-but-the-next-billion-will-be-harder/ https://qz.com/798481/over-a-billion-people-have-been-lifted... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor