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“We’re not doing anything not disclosed in our terms of service.” is rapidly becoming a no longer acceptable answer to consumers. Don’t tell me a weather app n

“We’re not doing anything not disclosed in our terms of service.” is rapidly becoming a no longer acceptable answer to consumers. Don’t tell me a weather app needs to know my location all the time to give me the best weather info then sell my location to the highest bidder. Don’t tell me that buried in some 20 pages of leagalese in your Ts&Cs is some vague references that make this “legal.”

random878 8y ago
I would respectfully disagree. It is not acceptable to roughly the amount of people (and I include myself) who make a deliberate and self conscious decision to oppose it. This is a small, small group. I have a phone with Replicant OS, which puts me within a niche group of an already niche group (those willing to install alternative OS and strip Google on their phone). In a wider computing sense - what percentage of HN use GNU/Linux? Of them, who runs as fully Free OS? What percentage of them are rocking a 12y.o. librebooted thinkpad? The general public are apathetic at best. Contrary to popular opinion, people are not ignorant to the behaviour of tech giants - they just don't care enough to stop. Clearly, it is still an acceptable answer to consumers. It's like claiming that people don't go vegetarian or vegan because they aren't aware of the suffering. Of course they are aware. It's just easier to keep eating hamburgers and live with the cognitive dissonance. It's the same with these apps.
- javajosh 8y ago
  Holy cow, you are using a phone without GPS? https://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/ReplicantStatus https://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/Replica...
  - JustSomeNobody 8y ago
    Everyone has their own use case. But, yeah, I am pretty sure I'd just go back to a feature phone if I couldn't have GPS.
  - random878 8y ago
    I previously used a Galaxy S3 with Replicant OS. I also have a Sony phone with Lineage OS (with no Google). I now use a dumbphone as I don't particularly like smartphones. This decision is less driven by security and more a desire to ringfence time away from tech. Personally, I was never bothered by the lack of GPS. I'm fine with offline maps. I have a satnav in the car which is the only time I really need minute-by-minute navigation. I found the lack of WiFi to be a bigger issue. Mostly as I like podcasts. There is/was an option to use a WiFi adapter which works well if you plan in advance (i.e. use it when downloading a bunch of apps when setting up, or downloading a bunch of podcasts in one go). Replicant OS is a really neat project, and they deserve some praise.
- mtgx 8y ago
  In the EU, there is this legal concept of "informed consent" that was implemented in the GDPR. It hasn't been tested much in court yet, but the theory is that users should actually understand what the "deal" between them and the company is when they "agree" to those terms of service. It seems pretty reasonable to me, otherwise stuff like slavery could also be brought back hidden in companies' ToS.
- inetknght 8y ago
  > Contrary to popular opinion, people are not ignorant to the behaviour of tech giants - they just don't care enough to stop. Contrary to your* opinion, people do care enough to stop but they don't know how. Tech giants have insinuated themselves into literally every aspect of their lives by abusing the lack of knowledge of the users. Now, they don't see a way out without drastic change. How can you get a job if you don't have a phone? How can you get a job when literally every affordable phone tracks you? Even my apartment complex online portal tracks me. What the flying fuck? The only way to actively stop is to not have any computing device whatsoever. Good luck living in a modern world like that: even then there's still facial tracking and vehicle tracking. People that say that consumers don't care enough to stop is living in their own bubble insulated from real people.
  - random878 8y ago
    >people do care enough to stop but they don't know how I'd guess the vast majority of HN users will be primarily users of Windows/Mac OS and proprietary software. Many HN users will use GMail, Google Maps, Google Play Services... an so on. Are we going to pretend that your average HN user doesn't understand the pros/cons of their software choices? Personally, I'd prefer to credit them with the intelligence to have made a balance and reasoned decision (albeit one I fundamentally disagree with). This trickles down to less tech savvy users too. Many of my colleagues in Medicine are more than aware of such issues due to rules and regulation on data storage and the like. They know, for example, why patient data should never be on Google Drive or GMail. They still continue to use those services for personal use, despite being aware, because they simply aren't sufficiently motivated to change their habits. GMail is familiar, and hence easy, so why switch to ProtonMail (for example)? >How can you get a job if you don't have a phone? How can you get a job when literally every affordable phone tracks you? I have a very good career and have used Replicant OS and Lineage OS. I now use a dumbphone because I dislike smartphones for other reasons. There are many, many successful people who can function perfectly well without the latest iPhone. >People that say that consumers don't care enough to stop is living in their own bubble insulated from real people. Please don't resort to ad hominem attacks on Hacker News. It is uncalled for, and there are more appropriate ways to put your point across.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  > It's the same with these apps. Not really. I agree that people accept it to some degree (I'd say out of helplessness), but that doesn't mean regular people expect a random free weather app is going to pawn off all all their contacts list to random scoundrels.
- trophycase 8y ago
  I think people are aware, they are just unable to understand the price they actually pay for such things. Answers like "well I have nothing to hide so I don't care if some FBI agent sees what I masturbate to" or "ads don't make me want to buy the product" show that the average person either doesn't fully understand the technology or completely misses the point. When you try to explain to someone how a goofy insurance commercial isn't supposed to "make them want to go and switch insurance" they just don't get it.
- wklauss 8y ago
  > The general public are apathetic at best. They are not and impact and buzz around articles like this show it. General public does not know enough about technology to understand the ramifications of what they do. For some it might be shocking to know it is this easy to reuse location data for other purposes, or that by mixing different data points, you can de-anonymize pretty much anyone. These are concepts that are clear when you work with or like technology, but are not natural and need to be explained and learned.
nerdbaggy 8y ago
Not sure if I agree. Dark Sky likes to have your location all the time because it enriches the data for everybody else. The promise not to ever sell our data, but they do say they are approached usually at least once a week about selling it https://blog.darksky.net/location-privacy/ https://blog.darksky.net/location-privacy/

random878 8y ago

I would respectfully disagree. It is not acceptable to roughly the amount of people (and I include myself) who make a deliberate and self conscious decision to oppose it. This is a small, small group. I have a phone with Replicant OS, which puts me within a niche group of an already niche group (those willing to install alternative OS and strip Google on their phone). In a wider computing sense - what percentage of HN use GNU/Linux? Of them, who runs as fully Free OS? What percentage of them are rocking a 12y.o. librebooted thinkpad? The general public are apathetic at best. Contrary to popular opinion, people are not ignorant to the behaviour of tech giants - they just don't care enough to stop. Clearly, it is still an acceptable answer to consumers. It's like claiming that people don't go vegetarian or vegan because they aren't aware of the suffering. Of course they are aware. It's just easier to keep eating hamburgers and live with the cognitive dissonance. It's the same with these apps.

javajosh 8y ago
Holy cow, you are using a phone without GPS? https://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/ReplicantStatus https://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/Replica...
- JustSomeNobody 8y ago
  Everyone has their own use case. But, yeah, I am pretty sure I'd just go back to a feature phone if I couldn't have GPS.
- random878 8y ago
  I previously used a Galaxy S3 with Replicant OS. I also have a Sony phone with Lineage OS (with no Google). I now use a dumbphone as I don't particularly like smartphones. This decision is less driven by security and more a desire to ringfence time away from tech. Personally, I was never bothered by the lack of GPS. I'm fine with offline maps. I have a satnav in the car which is the only time I really need minute-by-minute navigation. I found the lack of WiFi to be a bigger issue. Mostly as I like podcasts. There is/was an option to use a WiFi adapter which works well if you plan in advance (i.e. use it when downloading a bunch of apps when setting up, or downloading a bunch of podcasts in one go). Replicant OS is a really neat project, and they deserve some praise.
mtgx 8y ago
In the EU, there is this legal concept of "informed consent" that was implemented in the GDPR. It hasn't been tested much in court yet, but the theory is that users should actually understand what the "deal" between them and the company is when they "agree" to those terms of service. It seems pretty reasonable to me, otherwise stuff like slavery could also be brought back hidden in companies' ToS.
inetknght 8y ago
> Contrary to popular opinion, people are not ignorant to the behaviour of tech giants - they just don't care enough to stop. Contrary to your* opinion, people do care enough to stop but they don't know how. Tech giants have insinuated themselves into literally every aspect of their lives by abusing the lack of knowledge of the users. Now, they don't see a way out without drastic change. How can you get a job if you don't have a phone? How can you get a job when literally every affordable phone tracks you? Even my apartment complex online portal tracks me. What the flying fuck? The only way to actively stop is to not have any computing device whatsoever. Good luck living in a modern world like that: even then there's still facial tracking and vehicle tracking. People that say that consumers don't care enough to stop is living in their own bubble insulated from real people.
- random878 8y ago
  >people do care enough to stop but they don't know how I'd guess the vast majority of HN users will be primarily users of Windows/Mac OS and proprietary software. Many HN users will use GMail, Google Maps, Google Play Services... an so on. Are we going to pretend that your average HN user doesn't understand the pros/cons of their software choices? Personally, I'd prefer to credit them with the intelligence to have made a balance and reasoned decision (albeit one I fundamentally disagree with). This trickles down to less tech savvy users too. Many of my colleagues in Medicine are more than aware of such issues due to rules and regulation on data storage and the like. They know, for example, why patient data should never be on Google Drive or GMail. They still continue to use those services for personal use, despite being aware, because they simply aren't sufficiently motivated to change their habits. GMail is familiar, and hence easy, so why switch to ProtonMail (for example)? >How can you get a job if you don't have a phone? How can you get a job when literally every affordable phone tracks you? I have a very good career and have used Replicant OS and Lineage OS. I now use a dumbphone because I dislike smartphones for other reasons. There are many, many successful people who can function perfectly well without the latest iPhone. >People that say that consumers don't care enough to stop is living in their own bubble insulated from real people. Please don't resort to ad hominem attacks on Hacker News. It is uncalled for, and there are more appropriate ways to put your point across.
TeMPOraL 8y ago
> It's the same with these apps. Not really. I agree that people accept it to some degree (I'd say out of helplessness), but that doesn't mean regular people expect a random free weather app is going to pawn off all all their contacts list to random scoundrels.
trophycase 8y ago
I think people are aware, they are just unable to understand the price they actually pay for such things. Answers like "well I have nothing to hide so I don't care if some FBI agent sees what I masturbate to" or "ads don't make me want to buy the product" show that the average person either doesn't fully understand the technology or completely misses the point. When you try to explain to someone how a goofy insurance commercial isn't supposed to "make them want to go and switch insurance" they just don't get it.
wklauss 8y ago
> The general public are apathetic at best. They are not and impact and buzz around articles like this show it. General public does not know enough about technology to understand the ramifications of what they do. For some it might be shocking to know it is this easy to reuse location data for other purposes, or that by mixing different data points, you can de-anonymize pretty much anyone. These are concepts that are clear when you work with or like technology, but are not natural and need to be explained and learned.

nerdbaggy 8y ago

Not sure if I agree. Dark Sky likes to have your location all the time because it enriches the data for everybody else. The promise not to ever sell our data, but they do say they are approached usually at least once a week about selling it https://blog.darksky.net/location-privacy/ https://blog.darksky.net/location-privacy/