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>You want fewer delays? You want realtime countdown clocks? CBTC is the answer What crap. For nearly 100 years the subway has been just fine, and after 10-15 y

>You want fewer delays? You want realtime countdown clocks? CBTC is the answer What crap. For nearly 100 years the subway has been just fine, and after 10-15 years of corruption and mismanagement we're expected to believe the only solution is a multi-billion dollar upgrade with technology that didnt even exist the last time the system was functioning properly? I dont think lack of computer controlled trains is the problem here: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/05/09/nyregion/subway-crisis-mta-decisions-signals-rules.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/05/09/nyregion/subw... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/nyregion/new-york-subway-system-failure-delays.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/nyregion/new-york-subway-... >Signal problems and car equipment failures occur twice as frequently as a decade ago, but hundreds of mechanic positions have been cut because there is not enough money to pay them — even though the average total compensation for subway managers has grown to well over $200,000 a year. Daily ridership has nearly doubled in the past two decades to 5.7 million, but New York is the only major city in the world with fewer miles of track than it had during World War II. Efforts to add new lines have been hampered by generous agreements with labor unions and private contractors that have inflated construction costs to five times the international average. New York’s subway now has the worst on-time performance of any major rapid transit system in the world, according to data collected from the 20 biggest. Just 65 percent of weekday trains reach their destinations on time

bobthepanda 8y ago
The subway hasn't been "just fine" for the past 100 years. Up until the '80s disinvestment was the norm, to the point where pieces of elevated track were literally falling on people on the streets below. It takes a long time to correct 50+ years of deferred maintenance, and we're not out of the woods yet. Fewer miles of track is a legacy of that time period, as subway replacements for demolished elevated lines never came, and then elevated lines had to be demolished because they were a safety hazard. As far as construction costs go, the problem is actually that the MTA is not involved in construction union negotiations at all, and the firms are more than happy to oblige the unions and pass on the cost to their captive consumer. The barrier to entry for new firms is quite high due to byzantine NYS bidding rules as a result of '20s era reform, and even if you could have a new firm start up they'd be hiring from the same pool of workers; it's not as if specialized construction workers can be hired on visa. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-... > At the heart of the issue is the obscure way that construction costs are set in New York. Worker wages and labor conditions are determined through negotiations between the unions and the companies, none of whom have any incentive to control costs. The transit authority has made no attempt to intervene to contain the spending.
- ramblerouser 8y ago
  Thanks for the insight. I will look into that law more. It doesnt excuse the political process that has kept it on the books though.
  - bobthepanda 8y ago
    The main issue is that New Yorkers are extremely cynical and detached from the elections process, particularly on state and local elections which tend to take place on non-presidential years. Ocasio-Cortez and Gounardes showed that it is possible to turn things around if voters are motivated enough, but for the most part they aren't, and party machine politicians on both sides would like to keep it that way.
    - barrow-rider 8y ago
      > is possible to turn things around if voters are motivated enough, but for the most part they aren't, and party machine politicians on both sides would like to keep it that way. Reminds me of David Foster Wallace... > “If you are bored and disgusted by politics and don't bother to vote, you are in effect voting for the entrenched Establishments of the two major parties, who please rest assured are not dumb, and who are keenly aware that it is in their interests to keep you disgusted and bored and cynical and to give you every possible reason to stay at home doing one-hitters and watching MTV on primary day. By all means stay home if you want, but don't bullshit yourself that you're not voting. In reality, there is no such thing as not voting: you either vote by voting, or you vote by staying home and tacitly doubling the value of some Diehard's vote.”
inferiorhuman 8y ago
> What crap. For nearly 100 years the subway has been just fine, and after 10-15 years of corruption and mismanagement we're expected to believe the only solution is a multi-billion dollar upgrade with technology that didnt even exist the last time the system was functioning properly? CBTC has been an utter shit show in San Francisco. The transit consultants LOVE it. The riders who get to put up with extremely delicate equipment? Not so much.
- sho 8y ago
  > CBTC has been an utter shit show in San Francisco CBTC is used all day, every day by cities all over the world without issue. I've personally taken hundreds, if not thousands, of trips on train systems with this technology and it works perfectly. If SF is having problems with CBTC it says a lot more about SF than CBTC.

bobthepanda 8y ago

The subway hasn't been "just fine" for the past 100 years. Up until the '80s disinvestment was the norm, to the point where pieces of elevated track were literally falling on people on the streets below. It takes a long time to correct 50+ years of deferred maintenance, and we're not out of the woods yet. Fewer miles of track is a legacy of that time period, as subway replacements for demolished elevated lines never came, and then elevated lines had to be demolished because they were a safety hazard. As far as construction costs go, the problem is actually that the MTA is not involved in construction union negotiations at all, and the firms are more than happy to oblige the unions and pass on the cost to their captive consumer. The barrier to entry for new firms is quite high due to byzantine NYS bidding rules as a result of '20s era reform, and even if you could have a new firm start up they'd be hiring from the same pool of workers; it's not as if specialized construction workers can be hired on visa. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-... > At the heart of the issue is the obscure way that construction costs are set in New York. Worker wages and labor conditions are determined through negotiations between the unions and the companies, none of whom have any incentive to control costs. The transit authority has made no attempt to intervene to contain the spending.

ramblerouser 8y ago
Thanks for the insight. I will look into that law more. It doesnt excuse the political process that has kept it on the books though.
- bobthepanda 8y ago
  The main issue is that New Yorkers are extremely cynical and detached from the elections process, particularly on state and local elections which tend to take place on non-presidential years. Ocasio-Cortez and Gounardes showed that it is possible to turn things around if voters are motivated enough, but for the most part they aren't, and party machine politicians on both sides would like to keep it that way.
  - barrow-rider 8y ago
    > is possible to turn things around if voters are motivated enough, but for the most part they aren't, and party machine politicians on both sides would like to keep it that way. Reminds me of David Foster Wallace... > “If you are bored and disgusted by politics and don't bother to vote, you are in effect voting for the entrenched Establishments of the two major parties, who please rest assured are not dumb, and who are keenly aware that it is in their interests to keep you disgusted and bored and cynical and to give you every possible reason to stay at home doing one-hitters and watching MTV on primary day. By all means stay home if you want, but don't bullshit yourself that you're not voting. In reality, there is no such thing as not voting: you either vote by voting, or you vote by staying home and tacitly doubling the value of some Diehard's vote.”

inferiorhuman 8y ago

> What crap. For nearly 100 years the subway has been just fine, and after 10-15 years of corruption and mismanagement we're expected to believe the only solution is a multi-billion dollar upgrade with technology that didnt even exist the last time the system was functioning properly? CBTC has been an utter shit show in San Francisco. The transit consultants LOVE it. The riders who get to put up with extremely delicate equipment? Not so much.

sho 8y ago
> CBTC has been an utter shit show in San Francisco CBTC is used all day, every day by cities all over the world without issue. I've personally taken hundreds, if not thousands, of trips on train systems with this technology and it works perfectly. If SF is having problems with CBTC it says a lot more about SF than CBTC.