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The last sentence of this article resonates with me: Where are the leaders? I see a deep visionary impasse in all of the west. There is no coherent response

The last sentence of this article resonates with me: Where are the leaders? I see a deep visionary impasse in all of the west. There is no coherent response to a long list of hard problems. We know China or Russia are threatening us. Extremist leaders are appearing in a lot of our western countries, including US, Australia, a lot of Europe, ... Big multinationals abuse and damage the core social contracts that provide the stability of our nations. A huge climate crisis is coming at us. Meanwhile, our politicians are bickering amongst themselves. The problems of the 70's are fought with solutions of the 70's. I hate to see how people support right extremism, choose leaders that only damage them, but I do understand their frustration very well. It is clear something is not working. Every time I hear politicians say how they know what needs to be done, but they will get voted out if they try. I don't believe this is true. A few times, I saw a few rare politicians make a sane proposal where they told voters there would be hurt in the short run, and most of them actually get chosen. I believe the average voter is ready for change. Only there is no politician decent enough to get their vote. So where are you, leaders? We really need someone who has the daring to acknowledge the problem, the vision to dream big , the common sense to keep it possible, and to actually be capable of executing this vision. Not a small list, but not impossible either. I'm not saying this proposal is the one final idea to rule them all, but at least it is some step in the right direction.

corporateguy6 8y ago
I think part of the problem with politicians is how we choose them. A government career politicians says nothing about their individual abilities, except for the fact that they are adept at public speaking.
- tanderson92 8y ago
  On this point, Varoufakis, one of the founders of the DiEM25 movement that this article is implicitly referencing, recently said on a leftist podcast that part of the problem is the people you would want in government positions are those who don't want to stay there very long. That is, he views actual roles in power being viewed as something akin to jury duty a much healthier model than one where people want to become government ministers.
  - buboard 8y ago
    OK but he proved himself that you can do a lot of damage in just a few months.
    - tanderson92 8y ago
      That seems like an orthogonal point. I say that making no judgement either way about the quality of his governance.
      - buboard 8y ago
        if you are making no judgement, then you are simply ignoring the evidence. I can make a judgement because his work affected me directly. It was an extremely negative outcome for 5 months of work. So the point that you mention is wrong. How can this be orthogonal?
        tanderson92 8y ago
        I think a fair reading of my previous comment will reveal that I was trying to avoid engaging on the possible harm of his policies. That is not the same as absolving him. Instead, it is saying that you can evaluate his point independently of that question.
    - Apocryphon 8y ago
      He was at Valve for at least a year.
      - buboard 8y ago
        he was a minister of finance for 5 months or so. i dont think he did anything substantial while in valve
TaylorAlexander 8y ago
I feel as though our notion of government is outdated. How can this honeypot of corruption ever work in our best interests? I like what Martin Luther King Jr said - his people should work to run their local economies. Rather than begging an elite to help us, we work for collective wealth and take care of each other. MLK also advocated for government programs that would help his people, but this was seen as only part of the fight in addition to direct acquisition of power within his followers’ communities. Today I hear people begging and pleading for some politician to solve our problems, but I believe we must solve them ourselves directly, not indirectly through government. Unfortunately most of my fellow leftists can only see how to solve problems using some theoretical “caring” government. I don’t expect to encounter such a government in my life time.
- Angostura 8y ago
  > Rather than begging an elite to help us, we work for collective wealth and take care of each other. Good idea. Perhaps we should vote for a group of people to coordinate this action.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - TaylorAlexander 8y ago
    Are you mocking me? Why?
    - abeppu 8y ago
      I don't want to mock this idea, but I do think the question of how people should coordinate their efforts to directly help each other, and how to use their resources is an important one. How should the people attempt to ensure that their efforts to help each other are comprehensive, efficient, fair, etc? How should we attempt to make sure our help is targeted at the needs that are most important? For people raised in a society where government plays a large role, it's hard to imagine a solution which we wouldn't perceive as government.
analogwzrd 8y ago
I think it's a mistake to look for leaders in our elected officials. In general, politicians poll their constituents and their platform changes to mirror what their constituents want in order to continue being re-elected. Sometimes whenever a politician "flip flops" it's because they're changing their position to better align with their constituents. But this also means that public policy lags public opinion. If you want new (govenrment) solutions, you have to change public opinion first. Change the public opinion and the politicians will follow but I wouldn't expect them to take the lead.
- jimnotgym 8y ago
  > In general, politicians poll their constituents and their platform changes to mirror what their constituents want in order to continue being re-elected I find that in the UK the right-wing media tell everybody what they want, the BBC then takes that as rote and amplifies it. The officials then mirror that. Take the immigration issue as a case in point to demonstrate (I am not going to argue the rights and wrongs of immigration itself so don't bother commenting, this is a meta-comment). The current PM talked about reducing immigration constantly as Home Secretary (mirroring the Daily Mail). As PM she has done the same. Recently a story came out that she tried to suppress reports that immigration was a benefit to the economy on multiple occasions. A recent report said that immigrants on average were more of a benefit to the economy than native Brits. This seems to me nothing like mirroring public opinion, and instead they are trying to bend facts to fit the newspapers narrative, so they will get coverage. I think we do need leadership from elected officials, otherwise 'public opinion' is lead by the press barons.
  - roenxi 8y ago
    > ... they are trying to bend facts to fit the newspapers narrative, so they will get coverage. I think we can all agree that that is politics, but not leadership. Politicians are active players in the game of politics, no argument. So I suppose the null hypothesis is that the current PM has a large contingency of voters who don't like immigration (who are also pandered to by the Daily Mail), and is trying to represent them. I really like that one - a politician who attempts to show leadership _will_ be controversial and resisted. Democracies settle uncontroversial issues extremely quickly, then settle into an awkward status-quo with competing interest groups, where any change advantages some and disadvantages others. Someone who tries to lead anywhere new will face fierce opposition. Are you fundamentally saying that that null hypothesis is wrong? What are you proposing replaces it?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
KozmoNau7 8y ago
What we need is coordinated action to take the fossil fuel industry and all other gross industrial polluters down, make them feel the full burden of their responsibility, and it needs to be decisive and without compromise. They have been allowed to poison the world for far too long. As an ordinary person, what you need to do is shift your priority to vote almost exclusively based on environmental policies of the candidate, get involved in politics and not give in to people who claim it's "no big deal". I think this is a commendable initiative from Piketty et. al., which actually has a chance of being supported by a large number of people. Personally I don't think it's nearly hard-hitting enough, but it's a good start.
- Pamar 8y ago
  I'll wager that in order to write this message you used a device which had a certain number of plastic components, and I suppose that the probability of said device to reach your home or office entirely by muscle or wind powered vehicles are pretty near 0. In other words, while I am sure that "fossil fuel industry" was never motivated by purely altruistic ideas, we have also to take in account that the standard of living we take for granted is in large part due to "fossil fuel industry and all other gross industrial polluters".
  - KozmoNau7 8y ago
    Yeah sure, on that scale everyone is a hypocrite. But unless you want everyone who champions for climate-friendly living to live as a literal hermit in a cave, there is a trade-off. After all, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. We can try to minimize our impact, but the burden is not on the individual, it is on industry. I do try to keep a low personal climate profile, but there is only so much each individual can do, while still being able to sustain a living under the current system. Industry has been given a free pass for far too long, their pollution has been grandfathered in and even considered a necessary evil in the name of Holy Profit. But we are no longer so ignorant to their deleterious effect on our climate and (to put a point on it) the continued existence of humanity on this planet. Corporations could have shaped up and improved their environmental profiles decades and decades ago, when climate scientists first started pointing out the problems. But their didn't, because it was more profitable to continue poisoning the environment and clear cutting the rainforests.
ahakki 8y ago
> Every time I hear politicians say how they know what needs to be done, but they will get voted out if they try. I don't believe this is true. Imagine people rioting in the streets because you put a carbon tax on gas.
- roymurdock 8y ago
  you missed, the other side of the equation, the yellow jackets are also fed up because they perceive the gas taxes (along with tax after tax after tax under macron) to miss the upper classes and hit the lower classes disproportionately which are already struggling on a median $30k/yr income the carbon taxes should be levied on large corporations and their shareholders rather than than low income individuals and employees
  - ahakki 8y ago
    No, I didn't miss it. The problem is that no one actually seems to accept any reduction in quality of life for the commons. Saying that someone else should bear the load is just deflecting responsibility (and incidently what everyone does as soon as a measure hits them specifically). We all know that no one will do anything.
    - roymurdock 8y ago
      what do you mean, no one will do anything the yellow jackets are out rioting, killing, and dying to protest what they see as unfair the prime minister has already agreed to suspend the gas tax for 6 months, and will need to make further concessions or else risk being ousted/replaced
      - ahakki 8y ago
        >what do you mean, no one will do anything? >>Every time I hear politicians say how they know what needs to be done, but they will get voted out if they try. I don't believe this is true. I meant we all know that no one will do anything about climate change, because whenever anyone proposes something with an actual effect people come out "rioting, killing, and dying to protest what they see as unfair".
RivieraKid 8y ago
Haven't read the article yet but what you say articulates my unconscious feelings about the EU and Western countries in general. There is a lack of clarity of thinking, vision, a clear path forward. It makes me think of, although this is a weird analogy, the difference between how AlphaZero plays chess compared to traditional chess engines. AlphaZero plays with a strong sense of purpose and energy. Traditional engines seem to just... make some moves, trying to avoid mistakes without any high-level plan. Another analogy is Elon Musk's companies (even though I don't like the guy personally). He's able to present coherent, clear vision and make people excited about following the progress of his companies.
graeme 8y ago
The solution isn't obvious to me. There isn't a magic wand to wave in order to make people richer. But people seem to be looking for that magic wand. In France, the government has spent beyond its means. But people want lower taxes, higher spending, more pensions.
- ramblerouser 8y ago
  France has spent beyond its means on the Neo-liberal "invade the world invite the world" policies of supporting US wars and taking in vast quantities of economic migrants as "refugees". The solution is crystal clear to anyone who isnt in the corporate media bubble. End the aforementioned policies.
  - graeme 8y ago
    France opposed the Iraq war quite forcefully. Meanwhile, the bulk of France's non-European immigrants are from France's own former colonies: North Africa and French Subsaharan Africa. So, a legacy of France's empire.
    - ramblerouser 8y ago
      Ahh the old "legacy of empire" justification for mass immigration. The great French WWII leader Charles DuGaul gave up colonial posession of Algeria specifically to prevent migration to France. The cheap labor addicts in the European establishment dont care. Also, not Iraq, but France's bombing of Libya at the direction of the US is what started the migrant crisis. So yes, this is very much "invade the world invite the world" here.
      - graeme 8y ago
        I'm not sure that was de Gaulle's reason, unless you can cite some source. This has stats on immigrants to France. As you can see, most are from Algeria, Europe, and Morroco. Further, it you investigate the sub saharan africa segment I'm quite sure you'll find it's almost exclusively from former French colonies. The collapse of the Gaddafi regime certainly led to more migrant boats crossing, but the absolute numbers entering France are not high, and certainly not compared to other sources. Oh, and the Algerians mostly came after the Algerian war. One of the biggest early groups were Algerians who had fought with the French army. You appear to be very certain, but you don't seem to have any evidence to back up your views.
ramblerouser 8y ago
Would Marie Le Pen have done any of the things Macron did to damage the livelihoods of the French people? No. Because Macron is a Neo-Liberal puppet and Le Pen is not. The leaders you seek are glaring you in the face, but you reject them because you buy into the lies about "right extremism" from the corporate media that got us here in the first place.
- shostack 8y ago
  This seems like a similar argument people made for Trump and look how that turned out for them. Surely there are no other similarities between the two though [1]. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39478066 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39478066
  - ramblerouser 8y ago
    When the elites in your country are so hell bent on the repression of the people they rule over, that popular political candidates are cut off from the banking system and have to borrow money from banks in other countries, that should make you think twice when those same elites tell you populism is just a rouse perpetrated by people in the few countries willing to lend their support.
    - dang 8y ago
      It looks like you've been using HN primarily for political and ideological battle. We ban accounts that do that, regardless of their politics, so please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and don't do that.

corporateguy6 8y ago

I think part of the problem with politicians is how we choose them. A government career politicians says nothing about their individual abilities, except for the fact that they are adept at public speaking.

tanderson92 8y ago
On this point, Varoufakis, one of the founders of the DiEM25 movement that this article is implicitly referencing, recently said on a leftist podcast that part of the problem is the people you would want in government positions are those who don't want to stay there very long. That is, he views actual roles in power being viewed as something akin to jury duty a much healthier model than one where people want to become government ministers.
- buboard 8y ago
  OK but he proved himself that you can do a lot of damage in just a few months.
  - tanderson92 8y ago
    That seems like an orthogonal point. I say that making no judgement either way about the quality of his governance.
    - buboard 8y ago
      if you are making no judgement, then you are simply ignoring the evidence. I can make a judgement because his work affected me directly. It was an extremely negative outcome for 5 months of work. So the point that you mention is wrong. How can this be orthogonal?
      - tanderson92 8y ago
        I think a fair reading of my previous comment will reveal that I was trying to avoid engaging on the possible harm of his policies. That is not the same as absolving him. Instead, it is saying that you can evaluate his point independently of that question.
  - Apocryphon 8y ago
    He was at Valve for at least a year.
    - buboard 8y ago
      he was a minister of finance for 5 months or so. i dont think he did anything substantial while in valve

TaylorAlexander 8y ago

I feel as though our notion of government is outdated. How can this honeypot of corruption ever work in our best interests? I like what Martin Luther King Jr said - his people should work to run their local economies. Rather than begging an elite to help us, we work for collective wealth and take care of each other. MLK also advocated for government programs that would help his people, but this was seen as only part of the fight in addition to direct acquisition of power within his followers’ communities. Today I hear people begging and pleading for some politician to solve our problems, but I believe we must solve them ourselves directly, not indirectly through government. Unfortunately most of my fellow leftists can only see how to solve problems using some theoretical “caring” government. I don’t expect to encounter such a government in my life time.

Angostura 8y ago
> Rather than begging an elite to help us, we work for collective wealth and take care of each other. Good idea. Perhaps we should vote for a group of people to coordinate this action.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- TaylorAlexander 8y ago
  Are you mocking me? Why?
  - abeppu 8y ago
    I don't want to mock this idea, but I do think the question of how people should coordinate their efforts to directly help each other, and how to use their resources is an important one. How should the people attempt to ensure that their efforts to help each other are comprehensive, efficient, fair, etc? How should we attempt to make sure our help is targeted at the needs that are most important? For people raised in a society where government plays a large role, it's hard to imagine a solution which we wouldn't perceive as government.

analogwzrd 8y ago

I think it's a mistake to look for leaders in our elected officials. In general, politicians poll their constituents and their platform changes to mirror what their constituents want in order to continue being re-elected. Sometimes whenever a politician "flip flops" it's because they're changing their position to better align with their constituents. But this also means that public policy lags public opinion. If you want new (govenrment) solutions, you have to change public opinion first. Change the public opinion and the politicians will follow but I wouldn't expect them to take the lead.

jimnotgym 8y ago
> In general, politicians poll their constituents and their platform changes to mirror what their constituents want in order to continue being re-elected I find that in the UK the right-wing media tell everybody what they want, the BBC then takes that as rote and amplifies it. The officials then mirror that. Take the immigration issue as a case in point to demonstrate (I am not going to argue the rights and wrongs of immigration itself so don't bother commenting, this is a meta-comment). The current PM talked about reducing immigration constantly as Home Secretary (mirroring the Daily Mail). As PM she has done the same. Recently a story came out that she tried to suppress reports that immigration was a benefit to the economy on multiple occasions. A recent report said that immigrants on average were more of a benefit to the economy than native Brits. This seems to me nothing like mirroring public opinion, and instead they are trying to bend facts to fit the newspapers narrative, so they will get coverage. I think we do need leadership from elected officials, otherwise 'public opinion' is lead by the press barons.
- roenxi 8y ago
  > ... they are trying to bend facts to fit the newspapers narrative, so they will get coverage. I think we can all agree that that is politics, but not leadership. Politicians are active players in the game of politics, no argument. So I suppose the null hypothesis is that the current PM has a large contingency of voters who don't like immigration (who are also pandered to by the Daily Mail), and is trying to represent them. I really like that one - a politician who attempts to show leadership _will_ be controversial and resisted. Democracies settle uncontroversial issues extremely quickly, then settle into an awkward status-quo with competing interest groups, where any change advantages some and disadvantages others. Someone who tries to lead anywhere new will face fierce opposition. Are you fundamentally saying that that null hypothesis is wrong? What are you proposing replaces it?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

KozmoNau7 8y ago

What we need is coordinated action to take the fossil fuel industry and all other gross industrial polluters down, make them feel the full burden of their responsibility, and it needs to be decisive and without compromise. They have been allowed to poison the world for far too long. As an ordinary person, what you need to do is shift your priority to vote almost exclusively based on environmental policies of the candidate, get involved in politics and not give in to people who claim it's "no big deal". I think this is a commendable initiative from Piketty et. al., which actually has a chance of being supported by a large number of people. Personally I don't think it's nearly hard-hitting enough, but it's a good start.

Pamar 8y ago
I'll wager that in order to write this message you used a device which had a certain number of plastic components, and I suppose that the probability of said device to reach your home or office entirely by muscle or wind powered vehicles are pretty near 0. In other words, while I am sure that "fossil fuel industry" was never motivated by purely altruistic ideas, we have also to take in account that the standard of living we take for granted is in large part due to "fossil fuel industry and all other gross industrial polluters".
- KozmoNau7 8y ago
  Yeah sure, on that scale everyone is a hypocrite. But unless you want everyone who champions for climate-friendly living to live as a literal hermit in a cave, there is a trade-off. After all, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. We can try to minimize our impact, but the burden is not on the individual, it is on industry. I do try to keep a low personal climate profile, but there is only so much each individual can do, while still being able to sustain a living under the current system. Industry has been given a free pass for far too long, their pollution has been grandfathered in and even considered a necessary evil in the name of Holy Profit. But we are no longer so ignorant to their deleterious effect on our climate and (to put a point on it) the continued existence of humanity on this planet. Corporations could have shaped up and improved their environmental profiles decades and decades ago, when climate scientists first started pointing out the problems. But their didn't, because it was more profitable to continue poisoning the environment and clear cutting the rainforests.

ahakki 8y ago

> Every time I hear politicians say how they know what needs to be done, but they will get voted out if they try. I don't believe this is true. Imagine people rioting in the streets because you put a carbon tax on gas.

roymurdock 8y ago
you missed, the other side of the equation, the yellow jackets are also fed up because they perceive the gas taxes (along with tax after tax after tax under macron) to miss the upper classes and hit the lower classes disproportionately which are already struggling on a median $30k/yr income the carbon taxes should be levied on large corporations and their shareholders rather than than low income individuals and employees
- ahakki 8y ago
  No, I didn't miss it. The problem is that no one actually seems to accept any reduction in quality of life for the commons. Saying that someone else should bear the load is just deflecting responsibility (and incidently what everyone does as soon as a measure hits them specifically). We all know that no one will do anything.
  - roymurdock 8y ago
    what do you mean, no one will do anything the yellow jackets are out rioting, killing, and dying to protest what they see as unfair the prime minister has already agreed to suspend the gas tax for 6 months, and will need to make further concessions or else risk being ousted/replaced
    - ahakki 8y ago
      >what do you mean, no one will do anything? >>Every time I hear politicians say how they know what needs to be done, but they will get voted out if they try. I don't believe this is true. I meant we all know that no one will do anything about climate change, because whenever anyone proposes something with an actual effect people come out "rioting, killing, and dying to protest what they see as unfair".

RivieraKid 8y ago

Haven't read the article yet but what you say articulates my unconscious feelings about the EU and Western countries in general. There is a lack of clarity of thinking, vision, a clear path forward. It makes me think of, although this is a weird analogy, the difference between how AlphaZero plays chess compared to traditional chess engines. AlphaZero plays with a strong sense of purpose and energy. Traditional engines seem to just... make some moves, trying to avoid mistakes without any high-level plan. Another analogy is Elon Musk's companies (even though I don't like the guy personally). He's able to present coherent, clear vision and make people excited about following the progress of his companies.

graeme 8y ago

The solution isn't obvious to me. There isn't a magic wand to wave in order to make people richer. But people seem to be looking for that magic wand. In France, the government has spent beyond its means. But people want lower taxes, higher spending, more pensions.

ramblerouser 8y ago
France has spent beyond its means on the Neo-liberal "invade the world invite the world" policies of supporting US wars and taking in vast quantities of economic migrants as "refugees". The solution is crystal clear to anyone who isnt in the corporate media bubble. End the aforementioned policies.
- graeme 8y ago
  France opposed the Iraq war quite forcefully. Meanwhile, the bulk of France's non-European immigrants are from France's own former colonies: North Africa and French Subsaharan Africa. So, a legacy of France's empire.
  - ramblerouser 8y ago
    Ahh the old "legacy of empire" justification for mass immigration. The great French WWII leader Charles DuGaul gave up colonial posession of Algeria specifically to prevent migration to France. The cheap labor addicts in the European establishment dont care. Also, not Iraq, but France's bombing of Libya at the direction of the US is what started the migrant crisis. So yes, this is very much "invade the world invite the world" here.
    - graeme 8y ago
      I'm not sure that was de Gaulle's reason, unless you can cite some source. This has stats on immigrants to France. As you can see, most are from Algeria, Europe, and Morroco. Further, it you investigate the sub saharan africa segment I'm quite sure you'll find it's almost exclusively from former French colonies. The collapse of the Gaddafi regime certainly led to more migrant boats crossing, but the absolute numbers entering France are not high, and certainly not compared to other sources. Oh, and the Algerians mostly came after the Algerian war. One of the biggest early groups were Algerians who had fought with the French army. You appear to be very certain, but you don't seem to have any evidence to back up your views.

ramblerouser 8y ago

Would Marie Le Pen have done any of the things Macron did to damage the livelihoods of the French people? No. Because Macron is a Neo-Liberal puppet and Le Pen is not. The leaders you seek are glaring you in the face, but you reject them because you buy into the lies about "right extremism" from the corporate media that got us here in the first place.

shostack 8y ago
This seems like a similar argument people made for Trump and look how that turned out for them. Surely there are no other similarities between the two though [1]. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39478066 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39478066
- ramblerouser 8y ago
  When the elites in your country are so hell bent on the repression of the people they rule over, that popular political candidates are cut off from the banking system and have to borrow money from banks in other countries, that should make you think twice when those same elites tell you populism is just a rouse perpetrated by people in the few countries willing to lend their support.
  - dang 8y ago
    It looks like you've been using HN primarily for political and ideological battle. We ban accounts that do that, regardless of their politics, so please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and don't do that.